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Visitor car park, confusing signage
richard-
post Wed, 9 Aug 2017 - 09:59
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Hi,

Received the following NTK letter by post (fig. 1). The car park is a visitor car park, no permit required. I did contact the site owners who told me to contact the ppc directly, as residents are not permitted to park in the visitor parking area even if visiting the retail units.

At receiving ticket the following is shown as signage (fig. 2) this when the ticket was issued however in the last two weeks, the signage has been adjusted to (fig. 3). The letter was received by post, by requesting dvla data.

So it is clear to me from the fig. 2, the wording is completely unclear, it provides no help whatsoever to any visitor to this car park. Anybody would be confused by this parking signage. There are no other signs informing of parking hours, or time given to park in this area.

Can anybody assist in the first response to send?

Fig. 1


Fig. 2


Fig. 3


This post has been edited by richard-: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 - 10:20


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post Wed, 9 Aug 2017 - 09:59
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Flobber
post Wed, 9 Aug 2017 - 10:48
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Hi OP, i recently won a case on appeal to OPS through general signage and them failing to comply with the requirements of POFA schedule 4 paragraph 9 to hold the keeper liable.

Never identify the driver and check out my recent case where the driver was a visitor in a new build housing development.

recent win at appeal vs OPS

This post has been edited by Flobber: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 - 10:49


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ostell
post Wed, 9 Aug 2017 - 14:30
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That Notice to Keeper fails to comply with the requirements of POFA in several aspects. Here's POFA, read paragraph 9 as there was no windscreen ticket and see how mant sections are missing or just plain wrong.

I couldn't see the period of parking mentioned (between cameras is not parking, you were moving), nor a statement about who the creditor is. There is no statement about POFA liability, only some waffle about assumption registered keeper is the driver. What happened to (9) (2) (f)?

Was the date of the allegedn contravention and the date of RECEIPT of the NTK more than 14 days?

The signs are prohibitive. They are only permitting parking for certain groups so if you are not in one of those groups then there can be no contract as no offer and any claim would have to be for trespass by the landowner.

A simple Bogoff

ref PCN xxxxx VRM xxxx

I note your notice to Keeper dated xxxxx. I have, as requested forwarded this document to the driver of the vehicle at the time, as requested. There is no legal reason to provide the identity of the driver and I will not be doing so.

You do not seem to be making use of the provisions of POFA then I, the keeper, cannot possibly be held liable for the transgressions of the driver.

There is no reason in law that they registered keeper can reasonable be assumed to be the driver. Elliot v Loake, a criminal case with clear forensic evidence, does not help you here, unless of course you can provide suitable forensic evidence.

Your signs are of a prohibitive nature and therefore cannot possibly form a contract that be breached. The best would be the landowner to take action for trespass.

I do not expect to hear from you again, other than to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter,


Wait for others to comment before sending.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 10 Aug 2017 - 01:56
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there is no legal requirement to provide....

As you do not seem to be making use of...

There is no presumption in law that the Keeper of a vehicle is also the driver unless proven otherwise. Please provide all evidence you will rely upon that proves the identity of the driver, as you will be aware you must prove your claim initially
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richard-
post Thu, 10 Aug 2017 - 13:35
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Thanks guys

Should I mention anything regarding how should a user obtain a visitor permit, because this is nonsense. No permit is required for visitors, and no information is provided (standard sign)


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cabbyman
post Thu, 10 Aug 2017 - 16:27
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I would suggest no. I think it adds unnecessary complication to a very simple argument. After all, the RK doesn't need to know anything about permits; only the driver does.


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richard-
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 13:07
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Sent the following within the 28 days (was my response correct?) via email and received an emailed back with a "confirmed" response from OPS.

QUOTE
Dear Sir/Madam

I note your notice to Keeper dated xx August 2017 I have, as requested forwarded this document to the driver of the vehicle at the time. There is no presumption in law that the Keeper of a vehicle is also the driver unless proven otherwise. Please provide all evidence you will rely upon that proves the identity of the driver, as you will be aware you must prove your claim initially.

You do not seem to be making use of the provisions of POFA then I, the keeper, cannot possibly be held liable for the transgressions of the driver.

There is no reason in law that they registered keeper can reasonable be assumed to be the driver. Elliot v Loake, a criminal case with clear forensic evidence, does not help you here, unless of course you can provide suitable forensic evidence.

Your signs are of a prohibitive nature and therefore cannot possibly form a contract that be breached.

I do not expect to hear from you again, other than to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter.

Yours faithfully,


Heard nothing for two weeks, received a letter from a new organisation called ZZPS, see image.

Any advice? A bit disconcerting that OPS does not even respond when I have sent a reponse within the guidelines

This post has been edited by richard-: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 13:38
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 14:04
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Do you have proof it was sent in time?
They must respond within 35 days to approve or reject the appeal, if they are BPA ATA members. Complain to the BPA if so that the operator has failed to respond to a valid appeal, and has instead passed details to a third party debt collector.

Ignore ZZPS. They, like all debt colelctors, have zero powers.
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richard-
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 15:21
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 15:04) *
Do you have proof it was sent in time?
They must respond within 35 days to approve or reject the appeal, if they are BPA ATA members. Complain to the BPA if so that the operator has failed to respond to a valid appeal, and has instead passed details to a third party debt collector.

Ignore ZZPS. They, like all debt colelctors, have zero powers.


Sent via email, so yes I have proof and confirmation it was received by OPS

This post has been edited by richard-: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 15:51


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richard-
post Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 16:12
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Should I wait 35 days after I sent the appeal or write to the bpa now? Any tips on what should be written to the bpa?

Thank you


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SchoolRunMum
post Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 19:46
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Email aos@britishparking.co.uk

...and attach a copy of the NTK, and proof of your email being sent, and a copy of the ZZPS letter. Just explain that you appealed in time and the email proves it, yet OPS has passed the data bought from the DVLA under KADOE rules, to a debt collector without 'reasonable cause'.

Ask what the BPA are going to do about it and say that a certain parking forum is watching, so no balderdash about finding 'no breach of the CoP' please.

Do the email now.
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richard-
post Wed, 20 Sep 2017 - 14:21
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 20:46) *
Email aos@britishparking.co.uk

...and attach a copy of the NTK, and proof of your email being sent, and a copy of the ZZPS letter. Just explain that you appealed in time and the email proves it, yet OPS has passed the data bought from the DVLA under KADOE rules, to a debt collector without 'reasonable cause'.

Ask what the BPA are going to do about it and say that a certain parking forum is watching, so no balderdash about finding 'no breach of the CoP' please.

Do the email now.


My response, should I add anything before sending:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I as the keeper of the vehicle XXX submitted an appeal within the guidelines to one of your members, "one parking solution" whom avoided my appeal. The data from the DVLA under KADOE rules was passed to an organised named "zzps" a third party debt collector without 'reasonable cause'

Can you inform me what you intend to do concerning this issue.

This post has been edited by richard-: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 - 12:17


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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 21 Sep 2017 - 12:02
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Yeah not quite

State:

I as the keeper of the vehicle XXX. I submitted an appeal within the timescales to one of your members "one parking solution", as proven by email ref XXX, however they claimed I was out of time. My personal data from the DVLA under KADOE rules was then passed to an organisation "zzps", a third party debt collector, without 'reasonable cause'

I require this to be registered as a formal complaint and urgently require to know what you will do to resolve this issue. This is subject to an ongoing thread on pepipoo.com.
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richard-
post Mon, 25 Sep 2017 - 08:55
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The response received from BPA is quoted below, I will send the image of the NTK and the email appeal delivery confirmation from OPS.

QUOTE
As One Parking Solutions have agreed to adhere to the Code of Practice, then we would expect that if the appeal has been received, that an outcome is provided within a certain timeframe.

An operator is able to escalate a charge to debt recovery under certain circumstances. For ease I have included these below.

Either;

· No payment or appeal is received.
· After an appeal is rejected and no payment is received, and no appeal to POPLA is made.
· If POPLA decides against the motorist, and no payment is received within a certain timeframe.

As you can see, there are variables which can impact upon when a charge is escalated. If you have evidence that your appeal was received by the operator, then please advise us by return and we can look into the matter further.

We also note your contention regarding a breach of the KADOE contract. Such breaches are best shared with the Information Commissioners Office (ICO) as it is this body that will determine whether a DPA breach has occurred. If the ICO believe a breach may have occurred, we would be happy to receive details of their investigation from them.


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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 25 Sep 2017 - 10:12
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Wait, you didnt send it along as SRM told you?

It needed to all be in one killer email.

Send it aloing as told. See how theyre already providing excuses?
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richard-
post Thu, 26 Oct 2017 - 11:52
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Finally received a response from BPA, see below:

QUOTE
Thank you for your patience.

I have obtained a copy of the correspondence which was received by One Parking Solutions, see attached.

I note from the content you have advised you have forwarded details of the charge to the driver. However, it would appear that the driver has failed to make contact with the operator to either pay or appeal. We would always advise Registered Keepers to provide the operator with the name and address details of the driver of the vehicle at the time of the event. This then enables the operator to pursue the driver, and not the Registered Keeper.

The letter you have supplied does not appear to appeal the charge, and so would not have been accepted as an appeal at that stage. Subsequently, as the driver has not made contact, the charge has been escalated to debt recovery. This is standard procedure. Prior to the introduction of POFA2012, if the driver was unknown then the operator could and would pursue the Registered Keeper. This is still standard practice where POFA2012 is not utilised.

As we are only able to investigate breaches of our Code of Practice, I regret I am unable to assist you further in this scenario.

I would suggest seeking legal advice and escalating the matter via a court of law should you wish to contest the charge further.


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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 26 Oct 2017 - 11:58
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Hence why we say ot put the words "appeal" in to any appeal

Sounds like the usual fob off. SRM might have some new ideas.
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richard-
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 12:53
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Any new tickets I will ensure the wording appeal is in the context. I asked bpa to assist in providing a popla code, the response I received:

QUOTE
Thank you for your further email.

There is a set timescale for a Registered Keeper to be able to appeal a Notice to Keeper, this being 28 days from the date of issue. This is communicated on the Notice itself.

In this instance, you provided details of the driver, which unfortunately were not responded to. I appreciate you may have done that in good faith, but when no appeal is received by the operator within the permitted timeframes, then the charge can be escalated to debt recovery. Once that has occurred, then the time for appeal will have lapsed.

Because the correct process has been followed by the parking operator, this means that I am unable to instruct One Parking Solutions to provide you with a POPLA code. It would be entirely at their discretion to allow you to appeal to POPLA at this stage. Please also be aware that once a charge has been escalated, then the operator may not enter into further communcations on the subject.

Moving forward, if you wish to contest the charge you can do so via the small claims court, or you will need to pay the charge. I am sorry I am unable to assist you further on this matter.


I will suspend all communication now with all organisations tongue.gif

This post has been edited by richard-: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 12:54


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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 12:56
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Standard response

If the driver has been named then the BPA SHOULD have told you that the keeper should NO LONGER be chased, as they have NO CLAIM against the keeper once th drivers full name and serviceable address is given. Thats the law. they hate it, but thats the law.
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ostell
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 13:39
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QUOTE
Please also be aware that once a charge has been escalated, then the operator may not enter into further communcations on the subject.


But don't the courts require that you talk before issuing a court claim? Perhaps a judge would see that comment as completely unreasonable.
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