Contravention 47 - Stopped in bus stop (BUT NO ROAD MARKINGS!), colchester special |
Contravention 47 - Stopped in bus stop (BUT NO ROAD MARKINGS!), colchester special |
Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 20:29
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 10 Apr 2013 Member No.: 61,080 |
Contravention 47 - Stopped in bus stop (BUT NO ROAD MARKINGS!)
Hi all I wonder if you could help please? This is another Colchester special! , and is pretty well much the same as : previous Colch Code 47 Incandescent and PeterUK kindly suggested its better to start a new thread Colchester High Street, I stopped at a bus stop to let my girlfriend out, got snapped by the Spy Car going past. There are no yellow marking (or any markings) but there is a yellow "no stopping at Any Time except buses" plate. (my PCN and links to the google streetview are below) I know that people have put work into this in the other post (DancingDad, MAd Mick V, PASTMYBEST) I summarised what I understood your comments are here: 1) ITs a Restricted Parking Zone so cannot have different styles of waiting and parking and bus stops throughout (in particular bus stop/stand): "13.2 Waiting and loading restrictions, which must be uniform throughout the zone, are indicated by zone entry signs and time plates within the zone, but without yellow lines or kerb marks. Restricted parking zones are therefore suitable only for single streets or clearly defined small areas. They are not suitable for through routes with heavy traffic or facilities which create a demand for parking greater than can be accommodated in the on-street bays (unless convenient off-street parking is available). Unlike a pedestrian zone, there is no restriction on entry into a restricted parking zone." 2) The definition of a bus stop clearway in the TRO requires there to be road markings. No markings means the TRO has not been contravened. 3) The TSRGD also has not been contravened since Part 6 schedule 7 also requires there to be road markings (and there are no Variants to allow no road markings). I tried to PM cserki (the OP ) directly to see if he had any luck , but no reply, so I dont know if he succeeded or not! MIck had suggested in previous post a line of appeal as indicated further down this post - which looks great - unless there is anything different about my situation which i havent spotted? I have a couple of newbie questions. (which have probably answered so many times before but cant find in FAQ) 1) do I do this using Informal Appeal first or is that just a waste of time - should I go straight to formal appeal 2) Will the penalty stay at 50% discount (£35) while I appeal ? I seem to remember they used to use this as a way to encourage not appealing as people weree happy to accept 50% . (letter is dated 30 Jan) 3) Can I send the appeal on the website, or legally must it be by post? Thanks for helping , I am always amazed that this website has people this generous with their time! Micks suggested letter is : << Dear Sirs, I wish to appeal against PCN number ????? which alleges I stopped on a bus stand. This contravention cannot be sustained for the following reasons:- 1) There are no road markings or traffic signs denoting a bus stop/clearway as required by your traffic order and the traffic signs legislation; 2) The yellow plate which indicates a no stopping restriction except buses cannot constitute a bus stand situation; 3) If the Council regards this as a bus clearway, then the contravention given is incorrect it should be Code 46 "Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)"; 4) The yellow plate denotes a stopping restriction, not a bus stand, therefore the use of camera enforcement is not permitted. The signage at this location is totally inadequate and does not properly inform a motorist of whichever restriction is relevant. Had there been road markings I would not have stopped for less than a minute to drop someone off. Overall the Council have failed in their duty not to confuse or mislead under Reg 18 The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996. Yours .... --------------- See if others want to add anything. >>> Image from Google maps: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8896569,0...3312!8i6656 Its a restricted parking zone: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8896933,0...3312!8i6656 Colchesters TRO: colchester TRO |
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Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 20:29
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Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 10:43
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 10 Apr 2013 Member No.: 61,080 |
Any views on this one please? (bump)
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Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 10:54
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Any views on this one please? (bump) It is a PCN served by post so there is no informal challenge it is straight to formal representations and the appeal to adjudicator when/if rejected. The discount period is 21 days not 14. the council do not have to re offer it but may do. If you are making reps you should be prepared for appeal at risk of the full penalty. micks draft is fine -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 10:57
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 10 Apr 2013 Member No.: 61,080 |
Thanks again PMB, for such a fast response
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Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 09:56
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 10 Apr 2013 Member No.: 61,080 |
Hello all
So the time for response by the council to the Notice To Owner for this PCN is well past 56 days. Could someone please confirm that the 56 day response period includes all calendar days (eg including bank holidays and weekends) and includes the day that my representation is verifiably recieved by them? If so then: The recorded date of my web and email representation was 6th February 2018 . So adding 55 days (to include the representation day itself) would make April 2nd the latest day that I should receive their response. So next steps: should I nudge them and get them to move this on, stating the above (or for them to "try it on" and force me to go to adjudication) Or should I just leave it and forget about it for the time being. Also I have a feeling that in cases where they know they are completely wrong on the signage/road markings , they actually dont want to either declare that my represenations are correct, or have adjudicators declare same, as they wouldnt really want this to disseminate further - thus its actually a better policy to let it expire. It would have been useful to have the follow up from cserki , since it is an identical case: http ://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...3322&st=20 Many thanks everyone This post has been edited by geordiemike: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 09:57 |
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Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 10:21
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
The 56 days have expired and the council are deemed to have accepted the representations, you can forget about it. The last time I made informal reps against a PCN in that part of the world, although it was before the days of the partnership, I simply never heard anything from them ever again.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 12:31
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 10 Apr 2013 Member No.: 61,080 |
Thanks cp, the only thing I was worried about was from another post were someone said:
"The council have still not responded to this appeal! So I take it that means I've won!" and the reply was: "No it doesn't ! You need to chase them up on your appeal, as subsequent documents can go astray and the next thing you know the bailiffs have clamped your car. If they have an on-line facility check the status of the PCN. " http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...13322&st=20 All the best |
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Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 13:01
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
If they sent you a rejection and it got lost in the post, they would have to send you a charge certificate, then an order for recovery, then the bailiffs would send you a letter demanding payment, it's not as if you just wake up one morning and there's a clamp on your car (unless all the subsequent documents also happen to get lost in the post, which doesn't seem very likely). If you get is a charge certificate, it's not the end of the world, you wait for the order for recovery and you can then have it cancelled on the basis that you make formal representations but never had a reply, that resets the process and we just carry on with the appeal process from there.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 15:14
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,055 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
You play a straight bat. You do not get hung up about other threads- whose facts might not be the same - you just write to them.
Dear Mr Parking Re PCN ********** I refer to the above, in particular that section headed WHAT HAPPENS NEXT, which paraphrased states that if you do not serve on me a response to my representations within 56 days the NTO will be cancelled. I submitted representations online on 6 Feb. (see attached screenshot/email or whatever) therefore the 56-day period for service expired on 2 April. I have not received any response from you therefore the PCN must be cancelled. Nonethelesss, I should be grateful for confirmation in writing from you to this effect. Hugs Possible responses: We did not receive your reps. (Improbable given the passage of time because by now they would have sent you a charge certificate - although you've not posted the PCN issue date!) We sent you a response on. Bluff. (Which would be foolish because this has nothing to do with parking regs, THEIR statement in the PCN obligates them irrespective of parking regs. The fact that the reason it's there is because of parking regs is not the point, the authority format the PCN and it was their choice to include this obligation - in fact nothing in parking regs obliges them to include this in a PCN) What is the status of the PCN on their site out of interest? This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 16:32 |
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Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 16:12
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 10 Apr 2013 Member No.: 61,080 |
Thanks guys
The issue date of the PCN was 30th Jan 2018. They don't appear to have any tracking for PCN, just the original place to put the representation in http://www1.parkingpartnership.org/north/index (i tried to enter, it said I have already placed a challenge) . I guess the reason is that it doesnt really benefit them to do it. Even when you submit a representatino over the Web there, there is no indication of what you sent nor a date, just a code number as receipt (which has no date reference), so you would have to rely on their good will to admit that they received the letter at that time. (thats why in addition I emailed AND phoned recorded) And you are quite right HCN, it does say on the PCN itself! “...and write to you within a period of 56 days beginning with the date on which your representations served on it, informing you of their decision. If it fails to do so, this Notice to Owner will be cancelled and any sums already paid will be refunded.” Excellent , stirling work! As I mentioned, my feeling with this is that they would prefer these particular contraventation types to "elapse" - since they wouldnt really like dissemination of a clearcut ruling against them (they dont want to resign and repaint the high street / or lose parking fine income) Hugs?! Priceless |
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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 13:36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 10 Apr 2013 Member No.: 61,080 |
OK on the next day after this post, I received a charge certificate in the email. What a coincidence!
[img] It appears that didn't see my representation For submission of my initial representation, I have both the webcode and an email, with a reply from them saying that they had seen the rep (with the rep in the same email chain) I am shocked quite frankly as this feels like bullying What would be the next thing to do? Many thanks |
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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 16:10
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
You need to wait for the Order for Recovery to arrive, it will include instructions on how to get it cancelled on the basis that you made representations but did not receive a reply.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 15:09
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 10 Apr 2013 Member No.: 61,080 |
Thanks cp. Is it worth me calling them? They are reachable by phone, I spoke to the staff before and they were approachable
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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 16:29
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Thanks cp. Is it worth me calling them? They are reachable by phone, I spoke to the staff before and they were approachable I think would need to call the Traffic Enforcement Centre who are based at the County Court at Northampton, their details are available online. It is sensible to check up on them because if the OfR is lost in the post, the next you'll know about it is when the bailiffs turn up. There are strict deadline for objecting to the OfR so you want to make sure it isn't missed. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 19 Apr 2018 - 14:12
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 10 Apr 2013 Member No.: 61,080 |
Does the Order for Recovery come from Northampton or the Council . It seems a bit draconian, since I havent have a chance to go to PATAS
Thanks |
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Thu, 19 Apr 2018 - 14:22
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Does the Order for Recovery come from Northampton or the Council . It seems a bit draconian, since I havent have a chance to go to PATAS Thanks The Order for Recovery comes from the court in Northampton. It might seem draconian, but providing you challenge the OfR in time it will be cancelled automatically. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 19 Apr 2018 - 14:40
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Does the Order for Recovery come from Northampton or the Council . It seems a bit draconian, since I havent have a chance to go to PATAS Thanks The Order for Recovery comes from the court in Northampton. It might seem draconian, but providing you challenge the OfR in time it will be cancelled automatically. You will then get the opportunity to appeal to the tribunal -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 17:06
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 10 Apr 2013 Member No.: 61,080 |
thanks guys
So I spoke to the North Essex Parking Partnership on the phone. To their credit, they were helpful. They claimed to have send their letter rejecting my representation out on 01 March. (I didnt get that ). On the phone they accepted that I hadn't received the letter , and offered me another chance to reset and pay at the reduced 50% rate (£35) and to send out a copy of their rejection of my claim. However that hasn't stopped the process going to Northampton - so If I don't accept their offer then the process would occur as above (OfR) I am attaching their letter in which they reject my representation. Again, to their credit they appear to have read my rep and have gone through the points laid out. This gives a measure of how the points would stand up to PATAS. I am writing their points here for clarity, and attach the actual letter underneath. And I should mention , they say they have enclosed copy of 'special authorisation' by the Secretary of State, but they haven't done this. FROM COUNCIL: <<< Whilst I note your comments regarding lack of street markings, the bay does have signage placed throughout the bay along with bus stop board giving info on buses arriving. The signage as you quite rightly point out are yellow plated signs stating ‘no stopping except buses’. These have been approved by the Secretary of State, which has given special authorisation a copy of which is enclosed, which means the standard signage of thick yellow lines throughout the bay and the words bus stop can be omitted. With regard to a Bus Clearway and a Clearway these are two different restrictions, a clearway does not have to be a "Bus Stop Clearway" as defined. It can simply be an area of carriageway marked by diagram 1025.1, 1025.3 and 1025.4 without the legend "Bus Stop" marked within it. However, diagram 1025.1 etc. can only be used as a Bus Stop or varied to Bus Stand so there is no other clearway covered by this section of the TSRGD. Regulation 29 states... Road markings shown in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3, 1025.4, 1043 and 1044: bus stop and bus stand clearways and box junctions 29. - (1) the road markings shown in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3 and 1025.4 shall convey the prohibition specified in Part I of Schedule 19. 'Stopped within a clearway' would not be a description of the contravention as the markings are not for a clearway a 'clearway' has no road markings and has the same restriction as a red route. Whilst your comments have been noted, this did not entitle you to stop in a bus stop even for a short time, and you could have chosen an alternative place to pull over. The bay has signage indicating no stopping and there are bus stands within the bay. The onus is on drivers to observe where they stop and if not sure should find alternative parking. >>>>> |
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Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 17:16
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#19
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
A bit of a pickle and, subject to the views of others, you must wait for the OFR since you did not get the rejection letter prior to the Charge Certificate process being instigated.
Regardless of lines and signs, there is a will/may issue in the NOR which might win the case on its own. Mick |
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Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 17:27
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 10 Apr 2013 Member No.: 61,080 |
thanks Mick
Are the specific dispensations given by the Secretary of State for the council to make its own signs/markings made publicly available as documents by the council? I would be interested to see what they have allowed in Colchester. It doesnt seem fair that the council can be allowed to remove all road markings and expect the motorist to know what the restriction is. Their case seems to revolve around this alone, as I don't see that they are challenging the other points specifically, just responding to them This post has been edited by geordiemike: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 17:47 |
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