Challenging a PCN in these special circumstances Options

[adam108]

I am a musician and was doing a gig in a pub - On a Sunday afternoon I parked at about 1.30pm in Lewisham High St in a red striped loading zone - which allows you to load between 10.00am - 4.00pm

I stopped the car outside the pub unloaded my equipment intending to move the car after unloading.
Upon trying to start the car, it wouldnt start. And I was stuck with the car there but not able to move it during the afternoon as the gig was about to start shortly and I wouldnt have been free to attend the vehicle.
I rang the AA and booked a call - and asked them to come in the break. They could not guarantee that. I therefore asked them to come at the end of the gig which was to be 5.30pm. They said they could not be sure to come until 6.30pm And put notices on the front of the car windscreen and the back windscreen explaining the situation - and went in and the gig started.

At the end of the gig. I came out and the car started. I loaded my gear back in the car. Rang the AA and rebooked the appointment for my home address. The AA came at about 8pm, examined the car and did tests on it and emailed me a report.

A some days later I received a PCN with the contravention in location of Lewisham High Street of that Sunday time 14.54 - and a photo of my car parked there ( with notice visible in the rear windscreen)
The contravention was "46: Stopped where prohibited ( on a red route or clearway)"
* *
The evidence I have is the AA report of later that evening. And the photos from the fixed camera showing my car in two photos, one far away and one zoomed in - both show the notice I put in the back window.
* * *
So my question is: do I have enough evidence to challenge the PCN ( £130 - half paid if or £65 if paid within 21 days of 23Jan2020)

I assume there would be camera evidence all afternoon of me coming out, on the phone, putting the notices on the windscreen etc - would they look at this in my favour?

I would appreciate any expert comment on this- thanks

[Advertisement]

[adam108]

You want to rely upon an exemption which is that you were prevented from moving for reasons beyond your control.

This requires you to establish:
1. The vehicle was actually broken down when you returned after loading had ceased;
2. This occurred for reasons beyond your control.

So far the only hard evidence you have that the car was even broken down is the record of a phone call made to the AA. Your assertion that it was broken down is purely that, an assertion. It is not hard evidence.

I concede the point that I have not presented hard evidence that the car would not start ( unless the DVD TFL shows me getting into the car after loading, trying to move it, records the audio of the NEW starter motor turning over and the car not starting) - and that the case could turn on my personal credibility.

When I took the car the next day back to the garage that had (wrongly as it turns out) replaced the starter motor, the mechanic said to me to take a video of the next time I try to start the car and it doesnt start.

Question: If I had taken a series of phone videos of the entire story, the car engine turning over and not starting, my phone conversation with the AA, my conversation with the garage mechanic the next day, would that have consituted hard evidence satisfying the argument for proof?

This seems an important point to have expert opinion on if someone is broken down in an illegal place.

According to you the AA could have attempted to attend twice before you actually moved the car. You refused both.

The AA offered to attend during the gig. I refused that offer for the reasons I mentioned already: under what circumstances is it reasonable for a professional person in the course of their work to forgo temporarily prioritising attending their illegally parked/ broken down vehicle? A doctor answering on call? A plumber dealing with a water leak? A musician who presence is required for the band to perform?

Would it have strengthened my case if I had chosen not to re-arrange the AA visit to my home address, rather than stay there and wait for them? Doesnt the documentary evidence of the car's intermittent fault proves that there was a reason for the car sometimes starting? And the fact that I had to take it back to the garage the next day, and they kept the car for several days to sort out the fault? Would it turn the argument if I had proof of this in the form of phone videos?

Miraculously, but perhaps not surprisingly to you, the car started as soon as the gig had finished. The power of music?

Scepticism ... sarcasm... humour ... I guess this is something I have to put up with if I am to get free advice of an expert with tens of thousands of posts on this forum.

It's not that funny to me.. the time and expense and hassle I have been involved in.

You have to convince an adjudicator.

I don't know you and I cannot see you. i cannot ask you all the questions an adj might pose. Therefore I give you my view based on your objective evidence, and I am not convinced that you could prove on the balance of probabilities that the exemption applies.

You may yet be right... but I am not one to give up easily. I have lodged an initial appeal and will abide by the decision - I wont take it further for an in person appearance. Easier to pay £65 discounted fee if it goes against me and be done.
Will post the result when it comes.

[John U.K.]

Easier to pay £65 discounted fee if it goes against me and be done.

IF the adj finds against you then the full penalty stands.


EDIT
Apologies, I thought you were further down the line with the process.
Follow HCA's advice in post #23 below.
You could post your draft reps here for comment before submitting, but on no account miss deadline, or as HCA says, you face further penalty.

This post has been edited by John U.K.: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 - 09:28

[hcandersen]

In an ever-lengthening thread we need to keep our eyes on dates.

You have a PCN;
You may make reps;
If these are not made before 23 Feb. TfL may disregard and you would be looking at £195;
TfL are not obliged to, but often will, re-offer the discount if your reps are unsuccessful;
My references to the adjudicator are based on experience which tells me with 99.9999% certainty that TfL would reject your reps;
Hence why I have looked ahead to the challenges which you would face with an adjudicator where the full penalty would be in play.

Getting back to your original question, you have now missed the discount deadline so make reps and hope the discount is re-offered.

You know what you want to say. I have suggested some of the issues which you should anticipate would form part of TfL's thinking and which you should therefore address in your reps.

[adam108]

My references to the adjudicator are based on experience which tells me with 99.9999% certainty that TfL would reject your reps;
Hence why I have looked ahead to the challenges which you would face with an adjudicator where the full penalty would be in play.

I dont underestimate your judgement regarding both reps and adjudication! [...]

You know what you want to say. I have suggested some of the issues which you should anticipate would form part of TfL's thinking and which you should therefore address in your reps.

Just to be clear and clarify my last post (still getting used to the terms 'adjudication/appeal' which I understand are a later stage then 'reps'):

I have already made 'reps' ( based on advice given from you and other experts here) within the given time + requested a video from TFL + been reassured that my discount is on pause.

So when the result comes (and if as you say likely to be rejected) I will pay the £65 and be done.

Thanks sincerely to you and others on this forum for your input.

[cp8759]

So when the result comes (and if as you say likely to be rejected) I will pay the £65 and be done.

No, when the response comes show us the video and the rejection letter. For all you know, the rejection letter might contain some obscure legal flaw which you'd never pick up on your own.

[adam108]

So when the result comes (and if as you say likely to be rejected) I will pay the £65 and be done.

No, when the response comes show us the video and the rejection letter. For all you know, the rejection letter might contain some obscure legal flaw which you'd never pick up on your own.

Two updates for comment please:

1/ TFL sent this response to my REP:

" You have stated the time of contravention, your vehicle had broken down. You have failed to provide any proof of support for this. We require further information. Please provide evidence showing that your vehicle had broken down including details of location, date and time. [ the mistake was not to take a phone video of the car not starting] A recovery job sheet may be acceptable. Alternatively you can send in a garage receipt outlining repairs carried out, or details of the recovery company and any receipts. Please provide documentary evidence with with 14 days.. [ ] "

So I am sending in the AA Report which details the Air Mass meter problem and advising me to take it to the garage and getting a report from the garage.

2/ You mention the video - they send a dvd which is an .mkv file and I am a Mac user, so using software to convert it to quicktime was the only way to view it.. and the resulting video is grey and blank and faulty - is this a reason for the PCN to fail? ie that they sent me a faulty video? Or would I then have to spend ages testing the video on other platforms.. to PROVE it was faulty?

This whole issue has taken hours and hours of hassle - just to save £65 .. but it is not worth stopping now...

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[cp8759]

Upload the mkv file to dropbox, google drive or similar and I'll see if I can sort it out for you. Also show us all of the letter, redact your name and address only.

[adam108]

Upload the mkv file to dropbox, google drive or similar and I'll see if I can sort it out for you. Also show us all of the letter, redact your name and address only.

The original MKV file is uploaded to Dropbox link below - also includes the Quicktime .mov I tried to convert it to + the letter

EDITED LINK 8 mar 00.26am this one shows the full Folder ( the last one showed only one document):

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qudjawptj2wcv3i/...ER1QvLkSma?dl=0

Much appreciate your time on this!

PS 00.30am UPDATE: checking the Dropbox link above I discovered that the .mkv file plays and is viewable on Dropbox but not on my Mac computer! So it seems as if the fault is with the converting software I used to make the file into Quicktime... I cant find fault with the video from TFL point of view...

This post has been edited by adam108: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 - 00:33

[cp8759]

Well the response from TFL is actually quite positive, and indicates they just want something so they can tick the "evidence received" box.

Is that all of the AA report? Did you take the car to a garage?

Youtube version of the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-i39EjovkU

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 - 13:22

[adam108]

Well the response from TFL is actually quite positive, and indicates they just want something so they can tick the "evidence received" box.

That is good news.

Is that all of the AA report? Did you take the car to a garage?

Yes I had genuinely taken the car to the garage several times and today went to back pick to pick up a letter from them - which I sent today ( a second letter- the first sent Friday had the full AA report) to TFL Red Routes in Darlington.

The Garage letter I have added ( redacted) to the Dropbox link in my previous post.

Youtube version of the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-i39EjovkU

Thanks for this too! I will post the outcome here when it comes.

[adam108]

TFL letter received today - the representation has been accepted and the PCN cancelled.

Grateful thanks to all who have contributed to this thread - & thanks to the organisers of a great forum!

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[Incandescent]

Well done !