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PCN when parked fully off road
grumpydog
post Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 15:07
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Hi all,

We took a trip to Black Park (near Slough, Berks) today and parked in a lay-by fully off the road.
On our return we had a PCN for illegal parking between 12.03pm and 12.04pm.
There were no indications that the layby was closed, and it was a lay-by that has been used by park visitors for many years.
(for completeness, there were some old and tatty No Parking cones at the far end of the lay-by, in an area that nobody would ever have parked anyway, and they have been there for a long time)
We discovered a notice attached to a post on the opposite side of the road about 100 yards east of us. A photo of the notice is attached.
Should I have realised that this included the lay-bys (which are unmade & appear to be part of the Park rather than the road)?
Should I actually be expected to have read that sign as I approached?

Actually, what I'm really asking is whether this sounds like something I should challenge?

Thanks in advance...
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post Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 15:07
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Tipthemout
post Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 15:42
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We need to see the PCN. Redact your reg and PCN number, leave everything else in.
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cp8759
post Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 15:54
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If I were a betting type, my money would be on the fact that the council needed to make a TTRO and instead they just wacked up some suspension signs, which needless to say is completely illegal. But that's just a guess right now, we need to see the PCN and the council photos. Also give us a link to the exact spot on Google Street view.

Put the pictures on an external site like imgur.com or imgbb.com


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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 16:10
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Agree with cp8759 they need a TTRO with Section 14 Notices (dotted all over) rather than a suspension sign. Besides which, how can you suspend parking on that stretch of road if there are no designated parking bays?


Also where is Pinewood Rise should it not be Pinewood Road?

Plus the suspension exceeds 6 months whereas they only have permission for 6:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4518.pdf

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 16:14
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 19:41
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 16:54) *
If I were a betting type, my money would be on the fact that the council needed to make a TTRO and instead they just wacked up some suspension signs, which needless to say is completely illegal. But that's just a guess right now, we need to see the PCN and the council photos. Also give us a link to the exact spot on Google Street view.

Put the pictures on an external site like imgur.com or imgbb.com


No bet

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/pinewo...,-0.5576692,15z

I would guess they have done this before for filming but someone has messed up. Need s14 and needs to get road names right


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hcandersen
post Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 20:19
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OP,
On *** I drove along **** and then continued along Fulmer *** in an ****ly direction.

I parked in a lay-by located as shown in this GSV****

On returning to the car, I found a PCN which stated the following grounds *****.

On the opposite side of the road and approx. **** metres from where I parked I later found a sign, see photo.

On my approach to where I parked I did not see (before I parked) and could not find (after receiving the PCN) any notices or signs, let alone any which prohibited waiting.


As you also posted 'in an area that nobody would ever have parked anyway, and they have been there for a long time)' you obviously know the area. Have you been there since 22 May?

Where is Pinewood Rise?

towards
/təˈwɔːdz,twɔːdz,ˈtɔːdz/

preposition
preposition: towards; preposition: toward

in the direction of.


It does NOT express a point, it states in the direction of.

The whole road towards ....is meaningless in this context, especially if Pinewood Rise doesn't exist!

Hugo Boss AKA Joe Lycett would have a field day with this one.
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grumpydog
post Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 22:41
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Many thanks for your replies.

The redacted PCN is included with my photos - see link below.

I have no council photos – not sure how I would get them until I issue a challenge.

My photos can be seen here : Shared Folder

There are six photos of the “scene”. The first three show the layby we used (and show our blue car). The cones are clearly in a place where nobody was ever going to park. There are no signs in or near the layby. The next three photos relate to the next layby along. Again no signage, and just one cone placed across an entrance to the park (which again is not a new addition).

Google Streetview link for the layby. StreetView

If you spin this Streetview location around, you can see the signpost (side road, bend, speed limit) on which the notice was attached.

I agree with Mick that “Pinewood Rise” doesn’t seem to exist in this vicinity.

I have been to this area several times since 22nd May, and (obviously) had no idea of any restrictions. The laybys along this stretch (there are several) are frequently used by park visitors arriving from the north. There is a car park to the south which other visitors would use.

Cheers
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grumpydog
post Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 22:53
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I also found this on the Bucks Council website Link

They decided to restrict parking near beauty spots by creating a 24hr Rural Clearway. Their photos show cars parked on the roadway, which I clearly wasn't.

I am sure there are no clearway signs along the stretch of Fulmer Common Road that I used today.

(Ironically they also mention that they are tolerating parking on single yellow lines in towns...)

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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 07:51
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If the Council's purpose was to create a rural clearway then they need a TTRO. There's nothing on the Council's website about such a document or in the London Gazette.

Second, the contravention should be a Code 46 "Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)".

They've pretty much cocked up everything.

Mick


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hcandersen
post Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 08:51
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Can we get off the clearway etc. line, with respect it's as distracting as it is irrelevant.

The alleged contravention is: parked in a suspended bay or space. Code 21.

That's it.

Although the rules for London and outside differ, clearly there has to be uniformity as regards contravention descriptions and codes otherwise motorists would be confused. The London guidance shows that code 21 is for:

[i]The contravention occurs when a vehicle waits in a suspended parking place or in a suspended part of a parking place.
Extra information to be recorded:
[/i]

You've posted a photo of an area by the side of the road. You've called it a lay-by.

Whatever it is, it is NOT a parking place because it carries none of the obligatory traffic signs.

So, let's see their evidence pl before we go off at tangents.

And OP, stop carrying out your own research, enjoy the sun. The premis for your investigation is likely to be false and in any event it is for the authority to prove the legal restriction marked with the mandatory signs placed as required, not for you to disprove.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 08:53
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cp8759
post Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 11:01
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I would send a simple challenge at this stage:

QUOTE
Dear Buckinghamshire Council,

The alleged contravention did not occur. My car was not parked in a designated parking space, so it cannot have been parked in a suspended parking space either.

Yours faithfully,


Of course it will be rejected as the person dealing with it won't understand it, but that's inevitable.


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grumpydog
post Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 21:13
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Many thanks for your advice.

I've sent the Challenge as suggested, and will let you know the reply.
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grumpydog
post Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 08:02
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We've had a reply, and the PCN has been rescinded.

That's great news for me, and I'm very grateful for all the help you have offered me.

That said, reading the actual text (below), it seems as though Bucks CC aren't in any way saying "we were wrong". So presumably they will still issue tickets and accept money from people who don't believe it's worth challenging.

Cheers all...



Date: 01/07/2020

Dear

PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE:
VEHICLE REGISTRATION NUMBER:
CONTRAVENTION DATE: 23/06/2020
CONTRAVENTION TIME: 12:04

I am in receipt of your correspondence regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice.

Your vehicle was parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space.

After noting your comments, I can confirm that, on this occasion, the Penalty Charge Notice issued to your vehicle has been waived.

The matter is now closed and no further correspondence is required.

Yours sincerely,

Authorised Officer
Parking Services
Transport for Buckinghamshire

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Incandescent
post Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 10:48
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QUOTE
So presumably they will still issue tickets and accept money from people who don't believe it's worth challenging.

You bet !!
Councils get away with this because there are no sanctions on them for acting unlawfully. Until some council officials end up in jail it will carry on, unfortunately.
BTW, well done !!
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cp8759
post Fri, 3 Jul 2020 - 09:45
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You could write to the head of parking enforcement and ask them to confirm that all PCNs wrongly issued at this location will be cancelled, or refunded if they've already been paid biggrin.gif


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