PCN when parked fully off road |
PCN when parked fully off road |
Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 15:07
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#1
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 23 Jun 2020 Member No.: 108,951 |
Hi all,
We took a trip to Black Park (near Slough, Berks) today and parked in a lay-by fully off the road. On our return we had a PCN for illegal parking between 12.03pm and 12.04pm. There were no indications that the layby was closed, and it was a lay-by that has been used by park visitors for many years. (for completeness, there were some old and tatty No Parking cones at the far end of the lay-by, in an area that nobody would ever have parked anyway, and they have been there for a long time) We discovered a notice attached to a post on the opposite side of the road about 100 yards east of us. A photo of the notice is attached. Should I have realised that this included the lay-bys (which are unmade & appear to be part of the Park rather than the road)? Should I actually be expected to have read that sign as I approached? Actually, what I'm really asking is whether this sounds like something I should challenge? Thanks in advance... |
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Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 15:07
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Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 15:42
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 188 Joined: 8 Jun 2013 Member No.: 62,571 |
We need to see the PCN. Redact your reg and PCN number, leave everything else in.
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Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 15:54
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
If I were a betting type, my money would be on the fact that the council needed to make a TTRO and instead they just wacked up some suspension signs, which needless to say is completely illegal. But that's just a guess right now, we need to see the PCN and the council photos. Also give us a link to the exact spot on Google Street view.
Put the pictures on an external site like imgur.com or imgbb.com -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 16:10
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#4
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
Agree with cp8759 they need a TTRO with Section 14 Notices (dotted all over) rather than a suspension sign. Besides which, how can you suspend parking on that stretch of road if there are no designated parking bays?
Also where is Pinewood Rise should it not be Pinewood Road? Plus the suspension exceeds 6 months whereas they only have permission for 6:- http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4518.pdf Mick This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 16:14 |
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Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 19:41
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
If I were a betting type, my money would be on the fact that the council needed to make a TTRO and instead they just wacked up some suspension signs, which needless to say is completely illegal. But that's just a guess right now, we need to see the PCN and the council photos. Also give us a link to the exact spot on Google Street view. Put the pictures on an external site like imgur.com or imgbb.com No bet https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/pinewo...,-0.5576692,15z I would guess they have done this before for filming but someone has messed up. Need s14 and needs to get road names right -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 20:19
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,060 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
OP,
On *** I drove along **** and then continued along Fulmer *** in an ****ly direction. I parked in a lay-by located as shown in this GSV**** On returning to the car, I found a PCN which stated the following grounds *****. On the opposite side of the road and approx. **** metres from where I parked I later found a sign, see photo. On my approach to where I parked I did not see (before I parked) and could not find (after receiving the PCN) any notices or signs, let alone any which prohibited waiting. As you also posted 'in an area that nobody would ever have parked anyway, and they have been there for a long time)' you obviously know the area. Have you been there since 22 May? Where is Pinewood Rise? towards /təˈwɔːdz,twɔːdz,ˈtɔːdz/ preposition preposition: towards; preposition: toward in the direction of. It does NOT express a point, it states in the direction of. The whole road towards ....is meaningless in this context, especially if Pinewood Rise doesn't exist! Hugo Boss AKA Joe Lycett would have a field day with this one. |
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Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 22:41
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#7
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 23 Jun 2020 Member No.: 108,951 |
Many thanks for your replies.
The redacted PCN is included with my photos - see link below. I have no council photos – not sure how I would get them until I issue a challenge. My photos can be seen here : Shared Folder There are six photos of the “scene”. The first three show the layby we used (and show our blue car). The cones are clearly in a place where nobody was ever going to park. There are no signs in or near the layby. The next three photos relate to the next layby along. Again no signage, and just one cone placed across an entrance to the park (which again is not a new addition). Google Streetview link for the layby. StreetView If you spin this Streetview location around, you can see the signpost (side road, bend, speed limit) on which the notice was attached. I agree with Mick that “Pinewood Rise” doesn’t seem to exist in this vicinity. I have been to this area several times since 22nd May, and (obviously) had no idea of any restrictions. The laybys along this stretch (there are several) are frequently used by park visitors arriving from the north. There is a car park to the south which other visitors would use. Cheers |
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Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 22:53
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#8
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 23 Jun 2020 Member No.: 108,951 |
I also found this on the Bucks Council website Link
They decided to restrict parking near beauty spots by creating a 24hr Rural Clearway. Their photos show cars parked on the roadway, which I clearly wasn't. I am sure there are no clearway signs along the stretch of Fulmer Common Road that I used today. (Ironically they also mention that they are tolerating parking on single yellow lines in towns...) |
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Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 07:51
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#9
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
If the Council's purpose was to create a rural clearway then they need a TTRO. There's nothing on the Council's website about such a document or in the London Gazette.
Second, the contravention should be a Code 46 "Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)". They've pretty much cocked up everything. Mick |
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Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 08:51
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,060 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
Can we get off the clearway etc. line, with respect it's as distracting as it is irrelevant.
The alleged contravention is: parked in a suspended bay or space. Code 21. That's it. Although the rules for London and outside differ, clearly there has to be uniformity as regards contravention descriptions and codes otherwise motorists would be confused. The London guidance shows that code 21 is for: [i]The contravention occurs when a vehicle waits in a suspended parking place or in a suspended part of a parking place. Extra information to be recorded:[/i] You've posted a photo of an area by the side of the road. You've called it a lay-by. Whatever it is, it is NOT a parking place because it carries none of the obligatory traffic signs. So, let's see their evidence pl before we go off at tangents. And OP, stop carrying out your own research, enjoy the sun. The premis for your investigation is likely to be false and in any event it is for the authority to prove the legal restriction marked with the mandatory signs placed as required, not for you to disprove. This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 08:53 |
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Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 11:01
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I would send a simple challenge at this stage:
QUOTE Dear Buckinghamshire Council, The alleged contravention did not occur. My car was not parked in a designated parking space, so it cannot have been parked in a suspended parking space either. Yours faithfully, Of course it will be rejected as the person dealing with it won't understand it, but that's inevitable. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 21:13
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#12
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 23 Jun 2020 Member No.: 108,951 |
Many thanks for your advice.
I've sent the Challenge as suggested, and will let you know the reply. |
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Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 08:02
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#13
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 23 Jun 2020 Member No.: 108,951 |
We've had a reply, and the PCN has been rescinded.
That's great news for me, and I'm very grateful for all the help you have offered me. That said, reading the actual text (below), it seems as though Bucks CC aren't in any way saying "we were wrong". So presumably they will still issue tickets and accept money from people who don't believe it's worth challenging. Cheers all... Date: 01/07/2020 Dear PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE: VEHICLE REGISTRATION NUMBER: CONTRAVENTION DATE: 23/06/2020 CONTRAVENTION TIME: 12:04 I am in receipt of your correspondence regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice. Your vehicle was parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space. After noting your comments, I can confirm that, on this occasion, the Penalty Charge Notice issued to your vehicle has been waived. The matter is now closed and no further correspondence is required. Yours sincerely, Authorised Officer Parking Services Transport for Buckinghamshire |
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Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 10:48
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,915 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
QUOTE So presumably they will still issue tickets and accept money from people who don't believe it's worth challenging. You bet !! Councils get away with this because there are no sanctions on them for acting unlawfully. Until some council officials end up in jail it will carry on, unfortunately. BTW, well done !! |
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Fri, 3 Jul 2020 - 09:45
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
You could write to the head of parking enforcement and ask them to confirm that all PCNs wrongly issued at this location will be cancelled, or refunded if they've already been paid
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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