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[NIP Wizard] Fighting speed charges - was under 30mph
drjanmen
post Mon, 30 Jul 2012 - 22:25
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - February 2012
Date of the NIP: - 10 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 12 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A475 Llanwnen, Ceredigion
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Hello. I was forewarned of the speedcamera mobile unit by another motorist well in advance of the 30mph speed limit, around a bend, over the brow of a hill, and checked my speed which was 30mph. I then reduced my speed to between 25 and 30mph for the entire 30mph zone, passing the mobile speedcamera van on the way. I was confident that I was in the clear. I was astounded to get a NIP saying I was accused of doing 37mph. The camera van was parked behind a wall so that it was hidden until right on top of it. Likewise the camera operator would only have seen me as I passed him at an angle. I wrote to the Chief Constable with copy to Safety Camera Partnership explaining the facts and requesting photographic evidence (it does not identify me as the driver). I was obviously forced to state that I was the driver, ie incriminate myself, but had no choice. They offered me a COFP or Speed Awareness Course for £85 which I ignored. I now have a Magistrate's Court date for 5.9.12 which will be adjourned if I plead not guilty. I have told the CPS that I require the camera operator (not a police officer btw) to appear in court for questioning. The camera device is laser LTI 20.20 UltraLyte 1000 and Lastec recording system.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - Wales

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 22:25:55 +0000
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post Mon, 30 Jul 2012 - 22:25
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captain swoop
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 12:32
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Looking closer at the dog fouling sign I think it is actualy this one on the 30 repeater way down the road

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Llanwnen,+Ce...,20.38&z=15


It has the two plasitc tie wraps and the same black mark on it.

Pan to the left and there is the parking place the van was parked in

This post has been edited by captain swoop: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 12:36
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desktop_demon
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 19:00
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The OP must make an application for disclosure of the entire video recording not just the" relevant portion" showing the OP. That should be done at the first hearing for plea. The police might make a copy or they might invite the Op to come see the recording. Either way if the OP intends to run a defence of some sort the original evidence must be examined.

The Photo provided shows none of the data block that records the laser readings and similar information.


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promethian
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 19:27
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Its about time these speed camera van cheats got caught.

There is a scam going on, I hope someone can prove it.

I just wish I had taken mine to court too, but was advised not to, by the wise and wonderful on here.

My so called ping was ok too
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mrh3369
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 19:37
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QUOTE (promethian @ Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 20:27) *
Its about time these speed camera van cheats got caught.

There is a scam going on, I hope someone can prove it.

I just wish I had taken mine to court too, but was advised not to, by the wise and wonderful on here.

My so called ping was ok too


Anyone hold a gun to your head? The advice given is based on how the law works and how to get the best outcome given the facts presented it would be easy for us all to say go not guilty, fight it and call expert witnesses to refute the evidence but when you lose and get a costs bill of many thousands you might not be so happy with that advice.


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promethian
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 19:43
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Basically Yes they did, in as much as warning about costs etc. and warning what a waste of time and energy it would have been.

No one believed me either when I said I definitely was not speeding

The title of this Forum is PePiPoo Helping the motorists get justice.

Well its about time the above was achieved.

I'm still annoyed about it now, and I'm sorry if my annoyance is misdirected, but with all the people like me on here, who have posted that they were sure they definetly were not speeding , I would have thought the penny would have dropped by now, and the experts on this forum could galvanize themselves into some sort of action to actually help people.

Read my thread

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=66338

This post has been edited by promethian: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 19:54
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captain swoop
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 19:49
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So you claim the vans 'cheat'? How? equipment that gives deliberately false readings?
I tihnk you should make your case for a conspiracy in the Flame Pit, it doesn't help the OP with his case.

This post has been edited by captain swoop: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 19:50
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promethian
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 19:56
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I've edited my post please read again, and ignore it and the justice it requires.

A quick search of this forum of the terms not speeding shows how many there may be, and that is probably only the tip of the iceberg.

This post has been edited by promethian: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 19:59
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mrh3369
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 21:54
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And prisons are full of innocent people. If people truly believed that evidence was being fabricated they would be shouting it from the rooftops not helping people get the best outcome.

This post has been edited by mrh3369: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 21:55


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Logician
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 22:06
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You would not believe the number of people who post on here that they 100% definitely, no argument, did not go through a red light, only to have to back down when photos show that they did, similarly with GATSOs when the secondary check confirms the reading.


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The Rookie
post Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 01:48
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+1, we have learnt to be cynical about posters claims based on the fact that the evidence proves their opinion to be wrong.

None of the links really show the trees overhanging the bank as in the OP's photo, but streetview is 3 years old now......either way it's almost certainly where entering the 30 limit from the west.


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drjanmen
post Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 07:28
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QUOTE (captain swoop @ Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 12:40) *
Looks like a good 'zap' what is the location? There appears to be something written on the road behind the car, that should help identify the spot. (google link?)


The white markings on the brow of the hill say "ARAF SLOW"

QUOTE (justforthepictures @ Tue, 31 Jul 2012 - 08:32) *
QUOTE (drjanmen @ Mon, 30 Jul 2012 - 23:25) *
Hello. I was forewarned of the speedcamera mobile unit by another motorist well in advance of the 30mph speed limit, around a bend, over the brow of a hill, and checked my speed which was 30mph. I then reduced my speed to between 25 and 30mph for the entire 30mph zone, passing the mobile speedcamera van on the way. I was confident that I was in the clear. I was astounded to get a NIP saying I was accused of doing 37mph. The camera van was parked behind a wall so that it was hidden until right on top of it. Likewise the camera operator would only have seen me as I passed him at an angle. I wrote to the Chief Constable with copy to Safety Camera Partnership explaining the facts and requesting photographic evidence (it does not identify me as the driver). I was obviously forced to state that I was the driver, ie incriminate myself, but had no choice. They offered me a COFP or Speed Awareness Course for £85 which I ignored. I now have a Magistrate's Court date for 5.9.12 which will be adjourned if I plead not guilty. I have told the CPS that I require the camera operator (not a police officer btw) to appear in court for questioning. The camera device is laser LTI 20.20 UltraLyte 1000 and Lastec recording system. [/b]

It’s really quite common to read such claims regarding the positioning of enforcement vehicles, but I struggle to accept that such operations would be placed behind walls or bushes, when the equipment relies on a clear and uninterrupted line of sight to the target. You also add the angle issue, which if true, would have reduced the displayed speed of your vehicle due to something known as the ‘cosine effect’.

Is it possible you could post a Google Maps link to the exact location please, indicating where the enforcement vehicle was positioned and your direction of travel?

Can't get a link to Google maps. The site was A475 Llanwnnen SA48, mobile camera in layby outside school. My vehicle approached from over brow of hill towards camera, heading in direction of Llanwnnen village (where there's a mini roundabout). From the photo I was zapped as I popped over the brow - fishing expedition.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 07:33
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Why can't you get a link to google maps, see above, lots there!

Approaching from the west? So pinged just as you entered the limit over the brow?

Not fishing no.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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sgtdixie
post Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 07:43
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QUOTE
The camera van was parked behind a wall so that it was hidden until right on top of it.


Apparently not
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drjanmen
post Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 07:47
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QUOTE (captain swoop @ Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 13:24) *
well spotted, i was thinkingthe dog foulingsign looked to be on a telegraph pole. IT looks like the foreshortening of the telephoto lens makes the banks look higher. I can see the 'leaning' tree in the background and the speed signs are visible behind the car in the photograph above its roof.


The dog fouling sign is on telegraph pole outside school. The ping is as I come over the brow of the hill coming down the hill towards the school/cameravan MONITORING MY SPEED FROM BEGINNING TO END AS I HAD BEEN WARNED. It's good to be challenged on this forum but it would be even more helpful to be given practical advice, for example analysing video evidence, set up errors on LTI 20.20, the physics of laser cameras, etc. If no-one challenges these people when they are wrong, what's to stop a camera on every road zapping every driver within the speed limit and creaming off cash? Tyranny, I think it's called.

QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 13:27) *
It will be almost certain that the 37mph reading is correct - the point of capture is going to be the important bit.


"It will be almost certain that 37mph is correct" - would that stand up in court? Pure guesswork and WRONG because you were not there behind my wheel monitoring my speed. Thanks for challenging but you are totally wrong.
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drjanmen
post Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 08:11
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 02:48) *
+1, we have learnt to be cynical about posters claims based on the fact that the evidence proves their opinion to be wrong.

None of the links really show the trees overhanging the bank as in the OP's photo, but streetview is 3 years old now......either way it's almost certainly where entering the 30 limit from the west.


The key word is EVIDENCE. So let's talk about that, shall we? Blind faith in cameramen, technology...not infallible. How many people pay the fine because they can't afford justice? Think of them.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 08:14
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WHICH END OF THE FLAMING TOWN WAS IT??????

(third time of asking)

My post was in responce to others, right now they have enough evidence to convict you, we're trying to help....so tell us where it happened preferably with a street view link, or confirmation another link provided is right.

A link to the parking spot of the van would help as well!


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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sgtdixie
post Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 08:18
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OK, here goes.

Your assertion/belief you were not speeding will have very little sway with a court. A quick check on this forum will tell you how many posters are 100% sure they were not doing what was alleged until faced with proof, and has been said the prisons are full of those proclaiming they are innocent.

So your mission, should you choose to accept it, will be to show that the device was either being operated outside the operating instruction, or the operator was unqualified, or that the device was operating incorrectly. These days the first 2 are exceptionally unlikely as procedures have been tightened up, partly as a consequence of forums such as this.

This leaves a technical defence. This will require you to plead NG and request all the evidence and any associated information pertinant to your defence. These devices are extremely complex devices and you will almost certainly require the services of an expert witness to put across any defects you believe will show reasonable doubt.

If you succeed your costs will be reinbursed, if you fail it will cost you possibly thousands of pounds in costs. As the ping you posted looked about as plumb as it gets you are already looking at an uphill battle.

I am sorry to tell you this but my experience shows that despite warnings many drivers in modern cars simply take their foot off the throttle to slow down and fail to realise that it takes time and that they enter a limit slightly over as was the case here.

By all means fight it but be aware of the potential consequences.
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captain swoop
post Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 08:20
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QUOTE
None of the links really show the trees overhanging the bank as in the OP's photo, but streetview is 3 years old now.


I don't think the overhanging trees are actualy overhanging, going back down the road I can see the trees that appear in the picturee, they are a good way back and appear close because of the foreshortening.

QUOTE
The dog fouling sign is on telegraph pole outside school. The ping is as I come over the brow of the hill coming down the hill towards the school/cameravan MONITORING MY SPEED FROM BEGINNING TO END AS I HAD BEEN WARNED. It's good to be challenged on this forum but it would be even more helpful to be given practical advice, for example analysing video evidence, set up errors on LTI 20.20, the physics of laser cameras, etc. If no-one challenges these people when they are wrong, what's to stop a camera on every road zapping every driver within the speed limit and creaming off cash? Tyranny, I think it's called.


In my following post I put a link to the layby and the dog fouling sign in the picture. They have a clear sight all the way back to the 30mph sign. your picture is inside the limit, the sign is behind your car.

If you go to court and challenge the accuracy of the device they will point out it is Home Office Approved and will produce a Calibration Certificate for it. If you try to showe that Laser Devices are unreliable they will produce an expert witness to say they are reliable and will also point to the Home Office Approval.
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drjanmen
post Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 08:24
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 09:14) *
WHICH END OF THE FLAMING TOWN WAS IT??????

(third time of asking)

My post was in responce to others, right now they have enough evidence to convict you, we're trying to help....so tell us where it happened preferably with a street view link, or confirmation another link provided is right.

A link to the parking spot of the van would help as well!


Coming from the West, over brow of hill, just past 30 sign, by the look of the photo.

QUOTE (drjanmen @ Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 09:22) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 09:14) *
WHICH END OF THE FLAMING TOWN WAS IT??????

(third time of asking)

My post was in responce to others, right now they have enough evidence to convict you, we're trying to help....so tell us where it happened preferably with a street view link, or confirmation another link provided is right.

A link to the parking spot of the van would help as well!


Coming from the West, over brow of hill, just past 30 sign, by the look of the photo.


Van parked outside school, further down the hill on right hand side, just behind wall (before you get to mini r'b at centre of village).
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norahl
post Thu, 2 Aug 2012 - 08:24
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Here's the scene.
Prosecution have evidence from a type approved device and have a witness, it's all on video. The equipment is approved and calibrated and the operator has set it up correctly all is presented to the court. Case complete.


Your defence.
I didn't do it.....



Verdict = guilty
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