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Speeding NIP Scotland
Brokenwire
post Sun, 18 Aug 2019 - 14:48
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Can anybody help - what are my options with this? Have just arrived home today after holiday to find this. Not only did they send it out quickly but I have been away for 2 weeks so have not had time to look at options - if there are any?

I have not replied to anything yet. I was driving and possibly doing that speed but can't say for certain.

What happens if I return the form and say I was driving? I don't live in Scotland and am 250 miles away.
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post Sun, 18 Aug 2019 - 14:48
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666
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 15:17
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QUOTE (TryOut @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 15:23) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 11:34) *
Section 12 of the RTOA imposes no obligation on the recipient of the s 172 notice. Therefore, one cannot simply say that s 12 says it must be signed therefore he must sign it. It must be signed in order to be admissible evidence under s 12. So far as I recall, the English courts have decided that a requirement to sign the s 172 response is a lawful requirement when made by or on behalf of a Chief Officer of Police. The courts in Scotland have not made such a ruling. For what it’s worth, I think the decision would be the same in Scotland if it was ever necessary for the courts to make such a decision but it is not correct to say that it is the law in Scotland at this time - only that it might be.

Why are the Scots not bound by the Francis and O'Halloran case decided in Europe? Did that not accept that the S172 was not correctly completed unless it was signed?

I can find no reference to that in the judgement. https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22itemid%22:[%22001-81359%22]}
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southpaw82
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 15:32
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QUOTE (TryOut @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 15:23) *
Why are the Scots not bound by the Francis and O'Halloran case decided in Europe? Did that not accept that the S172 was not correctly completed unless it was signed?

No, it didn’t. In any case, the ECtHR has no jurisdiction to interpret domestic legislation, merely to determine issues arising out of the ECHR.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Logician
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 23:50
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QUOTE (TryOut @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 15:23) *
Why are the Scots not bound by the Francis and O'Halloran case decided in Europe? Did that not accept that the S172 was not correctly completed unless it was signed?


No, the case that decided that was an English one, Francis v DPP and therefore not a precedent under Scottish law. Andrew Perry will help you with these tricky points.



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Brokenwire
post Tue, 27 Aug 2019 - 08:58
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So, In a nutshell, I cannot expect English law to apply in Scotland, and viceversa. So the only action realistically would be the Scottish Police making a request of the local English force? And that would simply be to ask me to sign the form?

Why does the form ask for occupation and am I obliged to fill this in?
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The Rookie
post Tue, 27 Aug 2019 - 10:28
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Scotland has a separate legal system, much of the law is the same though.

Section 172 is identical for Scotland and England (and Wales) but Francis is English case law which set an interpretation on Section 172 that applies in England and Wales, the Scottish legal system has as yet created no interpretation on the matter either way.


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