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Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village, Evidence shows car was in and out of the road all within 29 seconds.
jaypx
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 19:17
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Hey guys,

Done a lot of browsing for the past couple of hours but haven't found anything that quite relates to this scenario.
Firstly, here is the notice that was received in the post: https://image.ibb.co/ftfZHS/IMG_6663_1.jpg
This states "this vehicle was parked in a manner whereby the driver agree to pay a charge" and that the driver "Parked outside of a marked bay / on a restricted roadway / landscaped / paved areas / or causing an obstruction or inconvenience to others - The signage in the area is clear and consise"

I'm hoping that some of you with more experience in this would be able to share some wisdom and kindly help me.

- The signs on this road are not clear AT ALL. The signs and font are SO small that the driver would have had to stopped the car and got out in order to read what the sign says. The photographic evidence of this sign is also not clear at all. I cannot even read what it says from a photo that's taken by the attendant from a closer range than the driver was in. Is this acceptable?
- The postal notice states that the incident took place at 15:52, the contravention time on paymypcn-uk shows 16:07, 15 minutes later than the notice, however the evidence of the vehicle show it on the road from 15:52:18, dropping off a passenger, making a U-TURN exiting the road at 15:52:47.
- The end of this road used to have passenger drop off / pick up locations which seems to be now removed due to station refurbishments. How was anyone supposed to know this information without driving down that road?
- The photographic evidence clearly shows that there was no obstruction or inconvenience to others

As the registered owner, I am looking to appeal this and would be thankful if anyone could point me in the right direction?

Thank you for your time
Regards
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post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 19:17
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SchoolRunMum
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 19:41
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Typical PCM predatory ticket in seconds, DO NOT PAY, read this:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/20...-scam-site.html

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/20...arade-scam.html

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/20...e-contract.html

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/20...th-1500_29.html

QUOTE
As the registered owner,
No such thing. You are the registered keeper.


QUOTE
I am looking to appeal
So, it doesn't work. This is an IPC firm, cases are won at court hearings.

Read the MSE NEWBIES thread to learn what Parliament thinks of this industry of 'bloodsuckers' (Hansard) and for a template appeal that a keeper can send just to look reasonable later when the Judge looks at the case and throws PCM's baseless claim out!

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...d.php?t=4816822

Post #1 has the template appeal and the Parliamentary quotes from the debate in February, so you can see the scam you are caught up in. Post #2 if for you to read in readiness for a useless LBC from Gladstones and an even more useless court claim, so you can see what to do and when.

You might like to try an IAS appeal, purely because it's PCM, as they seem to enter 'no contests' sometimes (I think they might be on a sticky wicket with the Trade Body, could be wrong). Don't expect to win the appeal but they might back off, as it;s PCM.

Normally we say 'no IAS' but with PCM it might be worth prodding the snakes nest. Whether they bite or slither away, nothing is lost.
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jaypx
post Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 17:00
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Thanks SchoolRunMum, so as expected, they have rejected the appeal without really acknowledging the points within it.

Here is there response: https://image.ibb.co/fjixzH/IMG_7488.jpg

Since they have rejected the appeal and I or the driver would not have any time to go through any stupid court proceedings, is it a good time to now let them know that the driver lives abroad and provide them with their foreign address details?
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jaypx
post Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 17:43
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They have also not provided a POPLA verification number in the appeal rejection letter. Is this allowed? According to the POPLA website:

"The private parking operator should have sent you a 10 digit verification code with their rejection notice. You will need this before you can submit an appeal to POPLA."
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Flobber
post Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 17:51
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QUOTE (jaypx @ Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 18:43) *
They have also not provided a POPLA verification number in the appeal rejection letter. Is this allowed? According to the POPLA website:

"The private parking operator should have sent you a 10 digit verification code with their rejection notice. You will need this before you can submit an appeal to POPLA."


Hi jaypx. As SRM said, do not expect to make an POPLA appeal to this bunch of xxxxxx, they are an IPC company and the kangaroo "IAS" appeals are not usually worth doing, although SRM did suggest it might be worth a shot as PCM sometimes fold at this point.

This post has been edited by Flobber: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 17:53


--------------------
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jaypx
post Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 18:09
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QUOTE (Flobber @ Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 18:51) *
QUOTE (jaypx @ Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 18:43) *
They have also not provided a POPLA verification number in the appeal rejection letter. Is this allowed? According to the POPLA website:

"The private parking operator should have sent you a 10 digit verification code with their rejection notice. You will need this before you can submit an appeal to POPLA."


Hi jaypx. As SRM said, do not expect to make an POPLA appeal to this bunch of xxxxxx, they are an IPC company and the kangaroo "IAS" appeals are not usually worth doing, although SRM did suggest it might be worth a shot as PCM sometimes fold at this point.


Thanks Flobber. Should I write to Parking Control Management with the name and foreign address details of the driver as I understand this discharges my obligation as Registered Keeper under PoFA 2012?
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ostell
post Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 19:43
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Yes, write to them and tell them name ànd full address of the driver, before any court claims are issued. They will probably complain and say you are still liable but they are wrong. Get free proof of posting from a post office

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 19:45
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Churchmouse
post Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 21:53
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QUOTE (jaypx @ Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 18:00) *
Since they have rejected the appeal and I or the driver would not have any time to go through any stupid court proceedings, is it a good time to now let them know that the driver lives abroad and provide them with their foreign address details?

The PPC might simply ignore the foreign driver declaration and proceed against the RK, as the "most likely" driver. If a court case ensued, the allegation about the foreign driver would have to be repeated in court documents, of course.

--Churchmouse
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jaypx
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 01:39
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Ok - so regarding this appeal rejection letter: https://image.ibb.co/fjixzH/IMG_7488.jpg

They are attemping to pin it on me (the Registered Keeper) as to be the driver by stating "You parked in a manner whereby you agreed to pay a charge". It was not me and they have no evidence that it was me.

I don't know if I should ignore this or do something with it? What would be the best way to try appeal this through the IAS / receive a POPLA code - would this not be thrown out by POPLA based on the below points I have made?
Should I now be sending anything back to Parking Control Management to 'reject the rejection?'

If this is appealed to the IAS, what would be the best way to outlay the following in the form of a letter? :

- The site signage not being clear and visible to a driver in a moving vehicle. The driver would have to physically leave the vehicle and spend a few minutes reading the signs that apparently bind the driver into a contract.
- Evidence showing that the car had entered the road, dropped of a passenger, done a u-turn and left the road in less than 30 seconds, with no evidence of any other persons / vehicles being obstructed or inconvenienced in any of the pictures as no other vehicles can be seen.
- Incident time on postal notification is 15 minutes different to the contravention time on the PCM payment site.

Date of posting first notice: 18-04-2018
Date the notice is given: 20-04-2018

Date of first appeal: 21-04-2018
Date on letter of first rejection: 23-04-2018

Thanks for your help
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ostell
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 06:23
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You don't appeal to the IAS, they will refuse the appeal.

Send of that name and address with proof of posting then just sit tight.
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kommando
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 07:08
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Use First class not second class when getting proof of posting.
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Redivi
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 08:49
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I thought that the IAS didn't accept appeals from the keeper and you therefore have to admit that you were driving
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yamaharider
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 08:56
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Yes I,m sure you can appeal as a keeper but as everyone is saying definitely not to IAS. the company I am currently dealing with are IAS (Excel parking) and I told them in a letter I would NOT use there appeal service stating its biased, prejudicial, lacks transparency and is detrimental to consumers. I also called it a "KANGAROO COURT" and suggested they review there appeals process, guess what? in a letter they sent back to me they never mentioned or passed comment on my statements, they know its corrupt, they just don't want us to know.
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jaypx
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 14:51
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Instead of providing them with any details of the driver, is it possible to use the IPC code of practice which states:

15.1 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site.

Considering the driver removed the vehicle from the road within under 30 seconds and the keeper has now received a PCN, surely this does not comply with the grace period? It should not matter one bit that a passenger left the vehicle in that time.
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ostell
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 15:27
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They will not allow an appeal, no matter what there Code of Practise says. If they did they wouldn't make any money.
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jaypx
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 16:11
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 16:27) *
They will not allow an appeal, no matter what there Code of Practise says. If they did they wouldn't make any money.


Ok thank you.

Please could someone assist me with the best way to word the letter to PCM to inform them of the drivers foreign address and to ensure that there's enough evidence to show that they can no longer legally pursue me? Or would it be better to just use a photocopy of the reverse of the initial NTK that requests name and address of the driver?

Thank you!

This post has been edited by jaypx: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 16:27
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ostell
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 16:29
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Sirs

I am the keeper of vehicle XXXX and have received your Parking charge xxxxx

The driver of the vehicle at the time of the alleged breach is (NAME) and the address for service is (ADDRESS).

Accordingly paragraph 5 (1) (b) of schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 no longer applies and you no longer have the right to claim keeper liablity.

I do not expect to hear from you again about this matter expect to confirm that any further action against me is cancelled and my details have been removed from your records.



Will that do?

This post has been edited by ostell: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 16:30
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SchoolRunMum
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 17:02
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QUOTE
I,m sure you can appeal as a keeper but as everyone is saying definitely not to IAS.

Nope, not everyone, not with PCM.

QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 20:41) *
You might like to try an IAS appeal, purely because it's PCM, as they seem to enter 'no contests' sometimes (I think they might be on a sticky wicket with the Trade Body, could be wrong). Don't expect to win the appeal but they might back off, as it;s PCM.

Normally we say 'no IAS' but with PCM it might be worth prodding the snakes nest. Whether they bite or slither away, nothing is lost.


My advice differs when it's PCM. See above. Better than sitting back and expecting a court claim later, and an IAS 'win' for PCM is worthless.

So if this is your first appeal, add to ostell's email/appeal to add that you confirm this is an appeal and if they reject it they must make IAS available.

I wonder if PCM will do that, offer IAS to YOU, and then you can win on the basis that you are not liable because you've already supplied the name and address of the driver, and in any case, the IPC CoP has been breached in two ways:

- predatory ticketing

and

- no grace period
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jaypx
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 17:28
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 18:02) *
QUOTE
I,m sure you can appeal as a keeper but as everyone is saying definitely not to IAS.

Nope, not everyone, not with PCM.

QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 20:41) *
You might like to try an IAS appeal, purely because it's PCM, as they seem to enter 'no contests' sometimes (I think they might be on a sticky wicket with the Trade Body, could be wrong). Don't expect to win the appeal but they might back off, as it;s PCM.

Normally we say 'no IAS' but with PCM it might be worth prodding the snakes nest. Whether they bite or slither away, nothing is lost.


My advice differs when it's PCM. See above. Better than sitting back and expecting a court claim later, and an IAS 'win' for PCM is worthless.

So if this is your first appeal, add to ostell's email/appeal to add that you confirm this is an appeal and if they reject it they must make IAS available.

I wonder if PCM will do that, offer IAS to YOU, and then you can win on the basis that you are not liable because you've already supplied the name and address of the driver, and in any case, the IPC CoP has been breached in two ways:

- predatory ticketing

and

- no grace period


Hi SRM,

i had already appealed through their internal appeal system on their website on the following grounds:

- rubbish signage, impossible to read from a moving vehicle without exiting
- vehicle less than 30 seconds in the road (no grace)
- no one was obstructed as shown in their own evidence photographs, not a single vehicle in sight trying to access the area
- contradicting incident and contravention time on the letter and on their website. 15 mins difference between the two.

They sent this rejection letter back WITHOUT a POPLA verification code: https://image.ibb.co/fjixzH/IMG_7488.jpg
On the reverse of the letter they have state that I may use IAS providing I lodge an appeal to them within 21 days of the rejection.


So all in all, this is not my first appeal but I would like to use the best method to try and nip this in the bud in my next correspondence to PCM if possible. What would be the best way to move forward in that case?

Thanks for all your help

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SchoolRunMum
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 17:32
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QUOTE
They sent this rejection letter back WITHOUT a POPLA verification code

Well, obviously not, because IPC firms do not have POPLA. They have IAS.

I would write to PCM now (can you mail them? if not then send a letter with proof of posting) giving the name and address of the driver abroad, FIRST. Do that this weekend.

Then do IAS as registered keeper, in your name, on the basis that, as I already said:

QUOTE
you are not liable because you've already supplied the name and address of the driver, and in any case, the IPC CoP has been breached in two ways:

- predatory ticketing

and

- no grace period
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