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PCN code 06, topic title
Dwayne
post Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 00:08
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Hello everyone, i have been looking around here after receiving a PCN code 06(Parked without clearly displaying a Valid pay and display ticket or voucher) -.- not pleased. I bought a ticket and placed it under my windscreen. i came back to see no ticket and a PCN(note i ride a motorcycle). the ticket has no adhesive so it was either stolen or blew away. i was just wondering if i have a case to appeal. i also noticed that the parking bay in question actuality starts with two white lines and around it is has the dashes as it should . but it ends in a single dashed line. after about a foot or so of no markings the row of bays begin again with a single dashed line and a few spaces later ends with the double lines again(as if there is a gap in the bays). here is a link of a Google map of the bay in question.Here.

i also believe you guys like to see the PCN so iv taken a few pictures(front and back).

bk1

bk2

bk3

fnt 1

fnt 2

fnt 3

I know the quality isn’t great but I can try and getter a better picture if needed

I have also added a few extra links off google map showing any other signs ect that mite be of use.
Pay at meter sign: .Here.
.obstructed view of the sign :Here.

Pay and display zone:Here.


I thank you all so much for reading and I would appreciate any comments regarding this outrage.

Anyway enough ranting thanks again for reading and I hope to here from you shortly, Dwayne.

This post has been edited by Dwayne: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 10:36
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post Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 00:08
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J_Edgar
post Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 08:51
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PCN does not comply with Reg 3(2)(b) of the appeals regs as it fails to inform you of the time available to submit an informal appeal.

What are the dates for the end of the 14 and 28 day periods given on the PCN?

/edit

First link to sign does not load.

In the second link, if the sign by the machine is the one you refer to then it needs to be parallel with the curb.


This post has been edited by J_Edgar: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 08:56


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DancingDad
post Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 09:45
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QUOTE (J_Edgar @ Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 09:51) *
........................First link to sign does not load.

In the second link, if the sign by the machine is the one you refer to then it needs to be parallel with the curb.


To the right of the meter (from road) there is a P&D sign against the fence (just bigher then fence line.
More importantly, by the door of the casino, immediately by funny bays where OP parked is a P&D sign.
Both facing road, both by building line of footpath rather then kerbside but relatively narrow footpath so doubt much could be made of that.
Streetview is an historic document though and what they show may not be present when pcn was issued..get back down there if you can and check.... clear photos would be good. Also can you get a pic of meter instructions. Doubt either will help unless the sign by the casino is missing totally or unreadable but you never know. IF you can't get back, ask for a copy of the CEO photos..if they are doing their job right they will have taken pic of sign by your bike.....
Hate to say it but not sure how an adjudicator will view legality or otherwise of bay markings...even with the funny gap....can't see why the council did that unless as pedestrian access between bays ?

On the missing ticket there is an inherent security issue with P&D tickets on a motorbike. Too easy for them to be removed, stolen or simply blow away. I wonder how much milage there is in claiming P&D system is unfair to motorcyclists as the risk of a ticket going missing is too great. Council will rejct any such challenge but worded right an adjudicator may sympathise..return the appeal to council or decide to find some other way to cancel...like the 3(2) issue J Edgar mentioned...opinions ???

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 09:47
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Dwayne
post Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 10:37
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sorry about broken link ... fixed

is there anything solid for my appeal ?

although that sign ... i did not see that. both when i was there and also in the gooogle map until you pointed out, recon it is legal ? if it is not im pretty sure the sign next to the pay and display box is the closest one, witch is about 30 - 40 meters away

This post has been edited by Dwayne: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 11:16
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J_Edgar
post Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 11:09
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You have a non-compliant PCN (Reg 3(2)(b) issues.
You have a hybrid bay, if the google map image is correct, 1028 with end markings of a 1032 at one end.
You have a sign on the parking machine that as far as I am concerned should be parallel to the curb.

Hopefuly a sign expert can confirm the compliance of the signs.

Taken together it is a pretty good appeal.

Also can you answer.

What are the dates for the end of the 14 and 28 day periods given on the PCN?


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Dwayne
post Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 11:38
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Sorry i didn't realize that that was a question. more of an statement guess i was wrong tongue.gif. Well there isn't a date stating the end of those periods. there are a total of 3 different dates on the pcn 1) Served on: (seen twice) 2) date of contravention 3) And 2 example date's seen once and sare dated in the future (around the end of the 14 day and 28 day periods alto the example dates are incorrect) for example 03/09/2010 +14 days does not equal the date in example 16/09/2010. also the notice does not specify that these examples are the dates associated with my pcn. so id have to work out the dates for myself. infact that's is very miss leading as far as im concerned.

This post has been edited by Dwayne: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 11:39
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Dwayne
post Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 12:11
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Also one more statement ... i believe the pcn should be attached to the windscreen or given to the driver .. the pcn was taped to my throttle and not on my screen but sadly i had no camera on me so i could not prove this and i had to remove it to ride off. id also like to ask people to view this pdf at the bottom there are a few signs (and a bay diagram) this diagram isnt consistent with the bay i parked in could this be used as evidence for my case ? here if this is so then the parking signs are also not right the only sign that is correct is the parking zone and that clearly states parking is allowed at certain locations within the time's stated.does that mean they have to specify that im unable to park in the bay between these times ? if so ther is no sign saying that:). i will be getting detailed photos of the signs tomorrow (free parking on Sunday).

This post has been edited by Dwayne: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 13:55
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J_Edgar
post Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 16:12
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QUOTE
03/09/2010 +14 days does not equal the date in example 16/09/2010


That was one of the dates I was after, if it was incorrect it would be a very strong point for appeal.

16/09/2010 is correct for the end of the 14 day period as the date of service counts as day one, so the sum you need to do is 03/09/2010 +13 days.

/edit

Both of the example bay diagrams in that pdf are not prescribed.

They are to diagram 1028.x, with end makings of 1028.4 at the top and 1028.3 at the bottom as pictured.

iirc Loading Only is not a prescribed variation of a bay to diagram 1028.4

Probably not helpful for your appeal but it does demonstrate that they are clueless wink.gif

This post has been edited by J_Edgar: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 16:25


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Dwayne
post Sun, 5 Sep 2010 - 00:40
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QUOTE (J_Edgar @ Sat, 4 Sep 2010 - 17:12) *
QUOTE
03/09/2010 +14 days does not equal the date in example 16/09/2010


That was one of the dates I was after, if it was incorrect it would be a very strong point for appeal.

16/09/2010 is correct for the end of the 14 day period as the date of service counts as day one, so the sum you need to do is 03/09/2010 +13 days.

must the dates be specifically stated as these dates or would this be acceptable: (ie 01/01/10). if placed after stateing the 14 / 28 day periods ?
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ford poplar
post Sun, 5 Sep 2010 - 01:19
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Dwayne, the dates shown are specific for your expiry dates, not example dates.

i.e.
"i.e." stands simply for "that is," which written out fully in Latin is 'id est'. "I.e." is used in place of "in other words," or "it/that is." It specifies or makes more clear.

e.g.
"e.g." means "for example" and comes from the Latin expression exempli gratia, "for the sake of an example," with the noun exemplum in the genitive (possessive case) to go with gratia in the ablative (prepositional case). "e.g." is used in expressions similar to "including," when you are not intending to list everything that is being discussed.

The two are often often confused in normal usage.

Above is from Google, not my education (which did include Latin)

This post has been edited by ford poplar: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 - 01:22
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Dwayne
post Sun, 5 Sep 2010 - 13:08
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:S s do i have very little chance to appeal with out that ?
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ford poplar
post Sun, 5 Sep 2010 - 13:58
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See post #5
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Dwayne
post Sun, 5 Sep 2010 - 15:38
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ahh my apologies i was unsure of the reg 3(2)(b) issues.

so after the information given to me, i guess im ready to write up my formal appeal.

could anyone supply me with any resources that would be helpful to me for my appeal
(im not shying away from work here iv been looking around and its been hard to find any decent resources)

these are the issues im looking to use in my appeal(see post 5):

You have a non-compliant PCN (Reg 3(2)(b) issues.

You have a hybrid bay, if the google map image is correct, 1028 with end markings of a 1032 at one end.

You have a sign on the parking machine that as far as I am concerned should be parallel to the curb.

And the fact that my ticket could have been easy stone / blown away(making it unfair for bikers/kit car drivers).

Any resources given i will read and put anything relevant into my formal appeal
and guys thanks a lot your time and effort i, appreciate it.

This post has been edited by Dwayne: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 - 15:43
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Dwayne
post Mon, 6 Sep 2010 - 13:54
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is the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 the current act i should be following for my appeal or is this outdated ?
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J_Edgar
post Mon, 6 Sep 2010 - 14:40
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QUOTE (Dwayne @ Mon, 6 Sep 2010 - 14:54) *
is the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 the current act i should be following for my appeal or is this outdated ?


With respect to what aspect?

Different appeal points will flow from different legislation.

A non-exhaustive list.

Traffic Management Act 2004
The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007
The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007
The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.

Civil enforcement is a minefield and this is why even the Local Authorities that try to get it right struggle, many don't bother to try.

This post has been edited by J_Edgar: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 - 14:44


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Dwayne
post Mon, 6 Sep 2010 - 15:05
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QUOTE (J_Edgar @ Mon, 6 Sep 2010 - 15:40) *
QUOTE (Dwayne @ Mon, 6 Sep 2010 - 14:54) *
is the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 the current act i should be following for my appeal or is this outdated ?


With respect to what aspect?

Different appeal points will flow from different legislation.

A non-exhaustive list.

Traffic Management Act 2004
The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007
The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007
The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.

Civil enforcement is a minefield and this is why even the Local Authorities that try to get it right struggle, many don't bother to try.


ahh thats alot of reading tongue.gif, lucky im rather interested in all of this.

ill post back with my draft shortly thanks again
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J_Edgar
post Mon, 6 Sep 2010 - 15:29
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That was the basic stuff wink.gif

If you start looking into bus lanes and moving traffic enforcement then you run into inside/outside London issues...

Post up your draft and more advise will follow.


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Dwayne
post Mon, 6 Sep 2010 - 15:42
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Hello does this sound good for the hybrid bay. and id like to ask you what you think of the last paragraph (if i should or shouldn't include it)

Fixed Penalty Ticket XXXXXXXX dated 03/09/2010

I write in regard to the issue of the above penalty charge notice to my vehicle in Temple Street on 03/09/2010.

I have examined the Parking Bay in relation to the penalty you have issued and I find that the markings on the highway fail to meet the legal requirements as set out in Statute and Regulations.

I therefore intend to appeal against the excess parking ticket issued to me at 11:25 on the 03 of September 2010. I request that your authority therefore provide me with details of:

1. The National Parking Adjudication Service

2. The Local Government Ombudsman

I also ask that you formally record my challenge against the fixed penalty ticket.

I am aware that a “traffic sign” is the only form of signing that a highway authority is empowered to place on a road to direct traffic, and any other form of sign employed by you cannot in any way be made to resemble a ‘traffic sign’.

Also, if the sign chosen or provided by a Highway Authority for the purpose of directing drivers as to what if any restriction applies, does not meet the strict criteria set out in law, then the sign is “non-prescribed”. The Government set out that

In order to use signs not prescribed in Statute and the Regulations, you are required to have obtained site-specific authority of the Secretary of State. If such an authority exists for the use of the signs and lines in Temple street, I request that a copy be forwarded to my address.

Your Officers are no doubt aware that the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 states:

Section 64 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984

In this Act “traffic sign” means any object or device (whether fixed or portable) for conveying, to traffic on roads or any specified class of traffic, warnings, information, requirements, restrictions or prohibitions of any description—
specified by regulations made by the Ministers acting jointly, or
authorised by the Secretary of State, and any line or mark on a road for so conveying such warnings, information, requirements, restrictions or prohibitions.

Traffic signs shall be of the size, colour and type prescribed by regulations made as mentioned in subsection (1)(a) above except where the Secretary of State authorises the erection or retention of a sign of another character; and for the purposes of this subsection illumination, whether by lighting or by the use of reflectors or reflecting material, or the absence of such illumination, shall be part of the type or character of the sign.


The duty of a highway authority is clearly set out in section 65 of the Act:

Section 65 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984
Subject to and in conformity with such general directions as may be given by the Ministers acting jointly, or such other directions as may be given by the Secretary of State, a highway authority may cause or permit traffic signs to be placed on or near any road in their area.

This section has a legislative margin noted stating – Powers and duties of highway authorities as to placing of traffic signs.
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 (and 1994) at Regulation 11 also directs what a traffic sign can be:


Regulation 11 Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.
Signs, markings and signals to be of the sizes, colours and types shown in diagrams.

(1) Subject to the provisions of these Regulations, a sign for conveying information or a warning, requirement, restriction, prohibition or speed limit of the description specified under a diagram in Schedules 1 to 7, Part II of Schedule 10 and Schedule 12 to traffic on roads shall be of the size, colour and type shown in the diagram.


Diagram 1032 sets out the parameters for the format and use of a Parking Bay. The form is rigid and must reflect the precise markings set out in the Regulations to create a lawful restriction. The permitted variants to this design are shown as: 1033. Therefore a line without terminal marking is a bay set out on the road in Temple Street and is not a prescribed sign as set out in both Regulation and Statute.

I note that the lining in the Town follows this non-prescribed format, which I take to be the deliberate act of the highway authority in contravention of its duties under section 65 of the Act.

I request that the authority provide copies of any written authority of the Secretary of State authorising the use of non-prescribed lining in the City of Wolverhampton for the control of traffic.

In the absence of such authority I would draw your attention to the fact that the government in Chapter 1 of the Traffic Signs Manual sets out the legal ramifications of your council’s action and I quote:

Chapter 1 Traffic Signs Manual - Use of Non-prescribed ‘Illegal’ signs.
Part 3. Legal Aspects and Responsibilities for Signs
1.18 The use on Public highways of non-prescribed signs which have not been authorised by, or on behalf of, the Secretary of State, is illegal and Authorities who so use unauthorised signs act beyond their powers. Additionally, an unauthorised sign in the highway is an obstruction. The possible consequences of erecting or permitting the erection of obstructions may be severe and those responsible could lay themselves open to a claim for damages……

1.20 Authorities should consider requiring the removal of any object or device erected privately on land adjacent to their roads which has the apparent or express intention of guiding, warning or directing road users. In addition , private advertisements should not resemble or incorporate prescribed traffic signs on their symbols. United Kingdom signs are crown copyright and may not be reproduced without permission. In no circumstances will the Department permit the use of traffic signs on advertisements at roadside locations. When prescribed traffic signs are used illegally action should be taken to secure their removal.

I therefore believe that Wolverhampton City Council has acted beyond its powers in placing non-prescribed restrictions on the highways in its area.

Further, I am aware that your highway engineers are provided with clear guidance on the provision of such lines and bays within Chapter 3 and Chapter 5 of the Traffic Signs Manual, both of which confirm the correct marking of a highway.

Whilst there tends to be a belief amongst some that a sign has merely to be recognisable as a sign to apply a restriction the Case of Davies v Heatley 1971 directs that even if a sign is clearly recognisable to a man as being a sign of that kind if it does conform to regulations no offence is committed.

Your authority has a clear duty in law, having access to relevant legislation, Government guidance and advice and of course, your own Legal Department. It is clear to me that the failure to sign the city to prescribed requirements must therefore be a conscious decision.

Further, as the Department for Transport points out to an authority provided with de-criminalised parking powers, you would be advised not to enforce defective lines and signs as they would invalidate the ticket issued, I therefore suggest that the decision to enforce defective restrictions must also be a conscious choice to act in breach of the law.

In conclusion, I do not accept that the parking restrictions imposed on Temple Street are lawful, that the ticket issued is therefore invalid and the actions of the authority are in full knowledge of the breach of law and their legal obligations.



I take this opportunity to notify you that it is my intention to:

a) Appeal the Penalty Charge Notice to the Parking Adjudication Service

b) Make a formal complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman of maladministration causing injustice

I look forward to your early response.

Yours sincerely



Thanks again guys iv been saying that lot smile.gif)

This post has been edited by Dwayne: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 - 15:48
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hcandersen
post Mon, 6 Sep 2010 - 16:05
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You've put in a great deal of effort with this. However, to keep it on track and relevant:

It's a penalty charge notice - you refer to it variously as an excess charge and fixed penalty notice.

Forget about references to the adjudicator and ombudsman, those avenues are not open to you at this stage and reference to them muddies the waters. You may apply to the adjudicator, but not at this stage.

Signs and lines - asking for the SoS's authority etc. is only relevant if they do not cancel the PCN, so I suggest that you say .."in the event that you do not cancel this PCN I require you to provide me with copies of......"

This'll keep the council busy. However, experience suggests that they will reject your challenge because you're making fundamental points about the validity of their PCNs, in particular those served in that area, and they won't give ground on this easily. Also, as you're still at the informal stage you won't get the sharpest knife in the council's drawer to deal with this. But don't despair if they do, this is often a marathon, not a sprint and your points will remain valid at the formal stages.

HCA

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Dwayne
post Mon, 6 Sep 2010 - 18:30
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OK i believe i have done what you have said here is my final draft of the first point of my appeal. ill be moving onto the second point of my appeal now (You have a non-compliant PCN (Reg 3(2)(b) issues.) ... this is looking to be a lengthy appeal.


Penalty charge notice XXXXXXXX dated 03/09/2010

I write in regard to the issue of the above penalty charge notice to my vehicle in Temple Street on 03/09/2010.

I have examined the Parking Bay in relation to the penalty charge notice you have issued and I find that the markings on the highway fail to meet the legal requirements as set out in Statute and Regulations.

I therefore intend to appeal against the penalty charge notice issued to me at 11:25 on the 03 of September 2010.

I am aware that a “traffic sign” is the only form of signing that a highway authority is empowered to place on a road to direct traffic, and any other form of sign employed by you cannot in any way be made to resemble a ‘traffic sign’.

Also, if the sign chosen or provided by a Highway Authority for the purpose of directing drivers as to what if any restriction applies, does not meet the strict criteria set out in law, then the sign is “non-prescribed”. The Government set out that

In order to use signs not prescribed in Statute and the Regulations, you are required to have obtained site-specific authority of the Secretary of State. If such an authority exists for the use of the signs and lines in Temple street, and that you do not cancel this PCN I request that a copy be forwarded to my address.

Your Officers are no doubt aware that the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 states:

Section 64 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984
In this Act “traffic sign” means any object or device (whether fixed or portable) for conveying, to traffic on roads or any specified class of traffic, warnings, information, requirements, restrictions or prohibitions of any description—
specified by regulations made by the Ministers acting jointly, or
authorised by the Secretary of State, and any line or mark on a road for so conveying such warnings, information, requirements, restrictions or prohibitions.
Traffic signs shall be of the size, colour and type prescribed by regulations made as mentioned in subsection (1)(a) above except where the Secretary of State authorises the erection or retention of a sign of another character; and for the purposes of this subsection illumination, whether by lighting or by the use of reflectors or reflecting material, or the absence of such illumination, shall be part of the type or character of the sign.

The duty of a highway authority is clearly set out in section 65 of the Act:
Section 65 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984
Subject to and in conformity with such general directions as may be given by the Ministers acting jointly, or such other directions as may be given by the Secretary of State, a highway authority may cause or permit traffic signs to be placed on or near any road in their area.
This section has a legislative margin noted stating – Powers and duties of highway authorities as to placing of traffic signs.
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 (and 1994) at Regulation 11 also directs what a traffic sign can be:
Regulation 11 Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.
Signs, markings and signals to be of the sizes, colours and types shown in diagrams.
(1) Subject to the provisions of these Regulations, a sign for conveying information or a warning, requirement, restriction, prohibition or speed limit of the description specified under a diagram in Schedules 1 to 7, Part II of Schedule 10 and Schedule 12 to traffic on roads shall be of the size, colour and type shown in the diagram.
Diagram 1032 sets out the parameters for the format and use of a Parking Bay. The form is rigid and must reflect the precise markings set out in the Regulations to create a lawful restriction. The permitted variants to this design are shown as: 1033. Therefore a line without terminal marking is a bay set out on the road in Temple Street and is not a prescribed sign as set out in both Regulation and Statute.
I note that the lining in the city follows this non-prescribed format, which I take to be the deliberate act of the highway authority in contravention of its duties under section 65 of the Act.
In the event that you do not cancel this PCN I require you to provide me with copies of any written authority of the Secretary of State authorising the use of non-prescribed lining in the City of Wolverhampton for the control of traffic.
In the absence of such authority I would draw your attention to the fact that the government in Chapter 1 of the Traffic Signs Manual sets out the legal ramifications of your council’s action and I quote:
Chapter 1 Traffic Signs Manual - Use of Non-prescribed ‘Illegal’ signs.
Part 3. Legal Aspects and Responsibilities for Signs
1.18 The use on Public highways of non-prescribed signs which have not been authorised by, or on behalf of, the Secretary of State, is illegal and Authorities who so use unauthorised signs act beyond their powers. Additionally, an unauthorised sign in the highway is an obstruction. The possible consequences of erecting or permitting the erection of obstructions may be severe and those responsible could lay themselves open to a claim for damages……
1.20 Authorities should consider requiring the removal of any object or device erected privately on land adjacent to their roads which has the apparent or express intention of guiding, warning or directing road users. In addition , private advertisements should not resemble or incorporate prescribed traffic signs on their symbols. United Kingdom signs are crown copyright and may not be reproduced without permission. In no circumstances will the Department permit the use of traffic signs on advertisements at roadside locations. When prescribed traffic signs are used illegally action should be taken to secure their removal.
I therefore believe that Wolverhampton City Council has acted beyond its powers in placing non-prescribed restrictions on the highways in its area.
Further, I am aware that your highway engineers are provided with clear guidance on the provision of such lines and bays within Chapter 3 and Chapter 5 of the Traffic Signs Manual, both of which confirm the correct marking of a highway.
Whilst there tends to be a belief amongst some that a sign has merely to be recognisable as a sign to apply a restriction the Case of Davies v Heatley 1971 directs that even if a sign is clearly recognisable to a man as being a sign of that kind if it does conform to regulations no offence is committed.
Your authority has a clear duty in law, having access to relevant legislation, Government guidance and advice and of course, your own Legal Department. It is clear to me that the failure to sign the city to prescribed requirements must therefore be a conscious decision.

Further, as the Department for Transport points out to an authority provided with de-criminalised parking powers, you would be advised not to enforce defective lines and signs as they would invalidate the ticket issued, I therefore suggest that the decision to enforce defective restrictions must also be a conscious choice to act in breach of the law.
In conclusion, I do not accept that the parking restrictions imposed on Temple Street are lawful, that the ticket issued is therefore invalid and the actions of the authority are in full knowledge of the breach of law and their legal obligations.
I take this opportunity to notify you that it is my intention to Appeal the Penalty Charge Notice to the Parking Adjudication Service
I look forward to your early response.

Yours sincerely



This post has been edited by Dwayne: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 - 18:33
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