PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

£513 due - do I pay or try N244?
Sam232
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 17:20
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 8 Feb 2018
Member No.: 96,428



Hello everyone, Thank you for taking the time to read my post and potentially help with my situation. I am sorry in advance for this being long but I will try to be as detailed as
possible.
I grew up on the south coast close to Brighton and had lived there for 30+ years. I lived with my girlfriend and a couple of friends. My girlfriend missed her family who lived in
Watford and missed seeing them everyday. In May 2016 my girlfriend received the horrible news that her dad had been diagnosed with a terminal cancer and would have
approximately 2 years to live. Straight away that changed everything, I felt guilty that I was keeping her from her family and this news was just destroying her inside., We
discussed it and decided to move as close to Watford as we could as quickly as we could. There was a lot to organise at the time. Changing jobs, finding somewhere to live,
finishing and starting contracts. We found somewhere new to live but had to start paying for it nearly 4 weeks before we could move. Anyway all in all we moved somewhere
between May-June 2016. I thought that I had updated everything but it turned out that I had not updated my vehicle log book. The new job that I got meant that I was
commuting in and out of London close to Westfields and the Grenfell tower from the new flat that we had found in Hemel Hempstead. This was a bit of a new experience for me as
before that I had only been to London once in my life and never really driven there.
At some point around July/August 2017 I was working and had been called to the front desk. Apparently someone from the DVLA had been looking at cars in our car park and my
car had come up as having no tax. I was mortified at the time as I normally pay this as soon as the renewal reminder comes through. I phoned the DVLA up and they confirmed
that my tax had run out. I asked about the reminder (not that I should wait for that I know) and they said that they had sent it and then I checked the address. It was now that I
realised that my address had not been updated. I phoned home and got my girlfriend to give me the details on my vehicle log book, phoned the DVLA back up and paid my tax
there and then. I then transferred to a different department and paid for the period that I had been untaxed and settled anything outstanding. After that happened I updated my
vehicle log book within a week and made sure everything was as it should have been. Admittadly this was completely my fault and I do take responsibility for the mistake, but it
was just that - a mistake. I'd like to think that anyone looking at evidence would acknowledge as soon as I found out I dealt with the mistake there and then!
In December 2017 I received a letter from a collection company stating that I owed them £513 and that they were applying for a warrant for my address. If I did not pay the
money owed and an agent was required to attend then I would be liable for further charges. The letter stated that I had not paid a PCN dated 2nd March 2016. The contravention
was Craven park road / St Thomas Road CCTV Lanewatch. I thought this was strange as I never drive in lanes that I shouldn't do. I phoned the collection company up to be told
that I could not argue the contravention as it had already gone past that stage and that I had to pay the money. I mentioned that I had never received any letters or any PCNs.
The lady was polite but explained that it was too late. If I wanted to argue this then I had to seek legal advice. I then phoned up citizens advice who were very understanding but
the only real advice that they could give was to go to a solicitor. The next day I left work early so that I could talk to a solicitor, to be fair they were very good and informed me
about completing an out of time statutory declaration. I completed this on the 29th December stating that I had moved house and had not realised that I hadn't updated my
vehicle log book. The contravention happened in March and I had moved the previous June. I also mentioned that at that point I had not even seen the contravention.
At the end of January I received a response from Brent council stating that they were opposing my out of time declaration. The grounds for this were that they had done
everything that they should have and at no stage did I ever reply to them.
In February I received a response from the TEC stating that my out of time statutory declaration was refused. It also stated that the TEC is unable to assist with any enquiries
you may have regarding why the application was refused.
I have since found a website that shows me my PCN. It shows pictures of me turning right into a road. I will try to upload the pictures for you to see. The website states that the
contravention is that there was not allowed to be any right turn into this road. Looking at the pictures I cannot see any evidence of this.
Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image


I went onto google street view to have a
look and there are signs (35foot from the junction) but from the direction I was travelling it would have been extremely easy to have missed them. Also there is no signage at the
point of where you would make the turn. I am not sure what the law says on this but to me this seems extremely unfair and almost like it should not be allowed.
I have since googled the contravention and found other people that have taken the same contravention to court and won on the basis that the signage is not appropriate. I will
try to find these again and add the details.
2 separate wins for the same contravention as mine - http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t104165.html
Another 2 separate wins for the exact same contravention - http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t109463.html
The guy above literally did exactly the same as me!

My letter states that I had 14 days to decide if I want a review of this decision - £100 with a district judge or £255 for a judge with a hearing. I have to file this by the 18th
of February. Ironically my girlfriends dad has just passed away a week ago. I really don't know what to do at the moment.
I guess the questions I would like answered are the following :-
1. If I asked for a hearing would I be likely to win under the circumstances?
2. If I did have a review should I do it with just a judge or with a hearing as well?
3. If I won would I be able to claim the costs back?
4. If I won could I challenge the PCN as you would have been able to from the beginning?
5. Is there anything that you would do differently or simply just pay the £513?

Thank you so much in advance for reading and any help you may be able to offer!
Sam.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 14)
Advertisement
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 17:20
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
peterguk
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 17:52
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,347
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Member No.: 14,720



Wrong forum. A mod. will move.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 18:37
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,917
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



We need to see docs.

Describing what you wrote and Brent wrote doesn't work for us.

Host images externally, e.g. Flickr, Tinypic, Imgur and post the BB or IMG codes into a reply here.

Date on TEC refusal Order? And how delivered?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sam232
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 20:36
Post #4


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 8 Feb 2018
Member No.: 96,428



QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 18:37) *
We need to see docs.

Describing what you wrote and Brent wrote doesn't work for us.

Host images externally, e.g. Flickr, Tinypic, Imgur and post the BB or IMG codes into a reply here.

Date on TEC refusal Order? And how delivered?



Hi Neil, Sorry no problem will post shortly.
Thanks, Sam.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sam232
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 20:52
Post #5


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 8 Feb 2018
Member No.: 96,428



QUOTE (Sam232 @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 20:36) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 18:37) *
We need to see docs.

Describing what you wrote and Brent wrote doesn't work for us.

Host images externally, e.g. Flickr, Tinypic, Imgur and post the BB or IMG codes into a reply here.

Date on TEC refusal Order? And how delivered?



Hi Neil, Sorry no problem will post shortly.
Thanks, Sam.



OK really sorry, it's not letting me upload the photos as they are too big with the other photos in the thread. Any other way I can show them?
Thanks, Sam.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 21:03
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,917
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



See post #3.
You can't upload here.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
John U.K.
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 21:04
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,077
Joined: 9 May 2014
Member No.: 70,515



QUOTE
OK really sorry, it's not letting me upload the photos as they are too big with the other photos in the thread. Any other way I can show them?
Thanks, Sam.



Try this:
Do not attach docs/photos, but use this method:
Some are having problems with Tinypic at he moment.. try Flickr, where the BBcodes are concealed behind the curly arrow (click on it) for sharing.

Photo or scan. see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858&st=0
for how to do it. I use Tinypic for stage 2 with no problems. Thera are other sites, such as Flickr, which enable you to paste the BBCodes into your post here.
STAGE 1 takes care of resizing. If you use Tinypic for Stage 2, on the left each image in Tinypic is a list of links. Highlight and copy the entire link 'for forums' from the list for each image - beginning with IMG and ending /IMG (include all the square brackets [ ] ), and paste each link into your post. Each copied and pasted link will embed a thumbnail link in your post.

Using the attachment method is not advised as it means quickly running out of attachment space.

Redact/obscure name, address, PCN number and reg.mark.
LEAVE IN all dates/times; precise location, Contravention code and description.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 21:43
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 21,565
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



I think you'd better pay up.

This is purely procedural, not emotional or to do with the contravention itself. I don't wish to seem harsh, but the background is not the issue.

You changed address in May-June 2016.
You owned a car and were obliged to notify DVLA of your change of address. But you didn't.
Scroll on to March 2017 (you posted 2016!) and a PCN is sent to the the DVLA address.
Subsequent notices are also sent to this address, none of which you action because even after 9 months you had not updated your registered keeper details.
You submitted an OOT but this was opposed by the authority and refused by TEC.

A District Judge must apply the law and I cannot see a glimmer of hope for you.

Others may hold out more hope.

At present you must keep timeframes in mind because the enforcement process kicks in again after TEC's letter.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 21:46
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,831
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



Unfortunately we see rather too many cases like yours, where address changes, but the OP forgets to update the V5 of the vehicle.

It is now, I'm afraid, a matter of arithmetic and what is the best thing to do to minimise the amount you will have to pay. You owe the rather large amount of £513 because you did not update your V5, or set up any mail redirection so the law ran its course without your involvement.

Yes, it is a very harsh system this civil law of England, because the fact people may make mistakes, or forget to do things is never a consideration. So if you have the OOT papers reviewed by a CC judge, your OOT may be accepted but is by no means guaranteed as you are the sole architect of your misfortune. On the other hand, if you do win, the £513 is revoked, but it is very unlikely you'll get the £100 refunded, and the original PCN is still valid, so you then have to pay or appeal the original PCN. If you appeal you might win you might not. If you pay you'll have had to spend £130 for PCN plus £100 for CC review = £230. If you go on front of a CC judge, its £255 and the same considerations apply. If a judge review rejects your OOT, then you still have the £513 to pay. So it would be a gamble to take matters further in my opinion, but wait a bit to see what the others say, as I may have missed something out.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 21:48
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sam232
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:06
Post #10


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 8 Feb 2018
Member No.: 96,428



Hello everyone,
thanks for your messages so far. I'm trying to stay as open minded as possible.
I hope I've done the next bit correctly. If I have here are the pictures of the responses both ways.
I really do appreciate the feedback whether positive or negative.
Thanks, Sam.

Original letter received from collection agency


My email with the statutory declaration


Statutory declaration



Brent councils reply




TECs response

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 23:46
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,917
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



A tough one.


QUOTE (Sam232 @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 17:20) *
I updated my vehicle log book

When was that exactly? It is on the V5C as 'docref'.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
abby1988
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 23:03
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 66
Joined: 20 Dec 2017
Member No.: 95,647



I am no expert on this but i would say dont pay the 513£ yet, try the 244 review . never say never, but i dont know if non appearance would convince the judge. if you appear and explain your situation, you might be lucky. last thing you could try, gather all dates and info, email the council and beg them and ask of they coukd allow you pay notice to owner fee which is 130£ and close the matter, you could be lucky. i did that last week and the council cancelled the 513£ fee and allowed me to pay 130£ because of situation
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 00:33
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,917
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



QUOTE (Sam232 @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 17:20) *
5. Is there anything that you would do differently

Answer the simple question I asked ?

We can't answer the other questions until we have the info we (you) need.

Except 3. That's a No and 4. a Yes.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sam232
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 23:26
Post #14


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 8 Feb 2018
Member No.: 96,428



QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 00:33) *
QUOTE (Sam232 @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 17:20) *
5. Is there anything that you would do differently

Answer the simple question I asked ?

We can't answer the other questions until we have the info we (you) need.

Except 3. That's a No and 4. a Yes.


Hi Neil, sorry. Have just looked. September 17.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 00:26
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,917
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



QUOTE (Sam232 @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 23:26) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 00:33) *
QUOTE (Sam232 @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 17:20) *
5. Is there anything that you would do differently

Answer the simple question I asked ?

We can't answer the other questions until we have the info we (you) need.

Except 3. That's a No and 4. a Yes.


Hi Neil, sorry. Have just looked. September 17.

The relevant period in relation to not being able to file a Stat Dec in normal time is that between PCN and updating DVLA, i.e. not,
immediately relevant when you moved because until March 2017 it didn't matter.
So you updated 6 months too late in those terms.
But you would also need to show evidence of your move and that would reveal you actually failed to update DVLA for 16 months.

A Judge would quite possibly, or even probably, find this was all your fault.
You can never be sure because there are other ways of looking at it but I don't have time to explain right now.

I'll try and post tomorrow.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Monday, 25th June 2018 - 17:19
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.