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PCN Parking & Property Management Appeal, Parking charge notice appeal
Alfa Driver21
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:18
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I have been hit with a PCN for parking in my parking spot and not having displayed a permit. I have recently started a new job in the area and have moved to a flat with a gated parking complex and allocated parking space. I have parked in my allocated parking spot but forgot to display a permit - I have tried to appeal as only I can park in this spot, you need a key fob to get into the complex which I have access too and I pay for this parking spot as it is included and tied to my rent.

They denied my initial appeal on the grounds that it is my responsibility and it doesn’t matter if I pay for this spot or not - I wasn’t displaying a valid permit at the time.

I have two permits and is the only person who parks in my spot thus it wouldn’t make sense for me to not display one but one can understand that it’s something that can be easily forgotten especially after a stressful day at a new job.

The PCN is from Parking & Property Management, I am thinking of appealing to IAS - do I have grounds to get this appeal cleared?

Any advice would be appreciated thanks!
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post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:18
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Jlc
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:21
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The IAS won't help you and PPM will almost certainly sue you.

What does your lease/contract say about the spot?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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DWMB2
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:22
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IAS are pretty useless, so often not worth bothering with them.

What does your lease say about parking? (Exact wording, upload a copy if needed) - if your lease grants you rights to a specific space (ie a piece of land) then the parking company may not have the right to enforce parking on the space.


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Alfa Driver21
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:24
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QUOTE (DWMB2 @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 11:22) *
IAS are pretty useless, so often not worth bothering with them.

What does your lease say about parking? (Exact wording, upload a copy if needed) - if your lease grants you rights to a specific space (ie a piece of land) then the parking company may not have the right to enforce parking on the space.



The exact wording is:


Additional clause(s):
• Parking: Bay 44 permit must be displayed
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Jlc
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:25
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Then you are in quite a weak position.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Alfa Driver21
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:31
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 11:21) *
The IAS won't help you and PPM will almost certainly sue you.

What does your lease/contract say about the spot?


The exact wording from my contract is:


Additional clause(s):
• Parking: Bay 44 permit must be displayed


QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 11:25) *
Then you are in quite a weak position.



Would it better to pay the £60 to PPM and then try and appeal to get a refund? That way if they do deny the second appeal I won’t have to pay £100 if that makes sense
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DWMB2
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:36
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QUOTE (Alfa Driver21 @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 11:31) *
Would it better to pay the £60 to PPM and then try and appeal to get a refund? That way if they do deny the second appeal I won’t have to pay £100 if that makes sense

If you do that, you'd probably have to sue them to get the £60 back.

If you've paid, IAS won't consider an appeal (but IAS are useless anyway so I personally wouldn't bother with them).


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Jlc
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:39
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Let's see a picture of the signs. They won't refund you…


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Sheffield Dave
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:43
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So your lease (the contract between you and the landlord) says you must display a permit? In which case you may be in breach of your lease and the landlord may have some cause of action against you. However, unless your lease says that if you don't display a permit you agree to pay a stranger to the lease (the PPC) £100, then they're out of luck.

In court they will try to claim that their signs in the car park (which say you agree to pay them £100) form a contract which you accepted by performance (i.e. by parking). But this is complete nonsense: you had a pre-existing right to park, and so the signs couldn't possibly have offered you anything, so there would be no reason to enter into such a contract.
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Alfa Driver21
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:46
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 11:39) *
Let's see a picture of the signs. They won't refund you…


See attached photo

QUOTE (Sheffield Dave @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 11:43) *
So your lease (the contract between you and the landlord) says you must display a permit? In which case you may be in breach of your lease and the landlord may have some cause of action against you. However, unless your lease says that if you don't display a permit you agree to pay a stranger to the lease (the PPC) £100, then they're out of luck.

In court they will try to claim that their signs in the car park (which say you agree to pay them £100) form a contract which you accepted by performance (i.e. by parking). But this is complete nonsense: you had a pre-existing right to park, and so the signs couldn't possibly have offered you anything, so there would be no reason to enter into such a contract.


See attached photo of sign. There is nothing about paying a fine on my contract, the only line about parking and permit is the one I quoted above.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 11:59
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You stated you pay for the spot. So that CANNOT be the only part of your lease that covers parking - by definition if you're paying for that spot, the amount must be in the contract

You MUST have something stating you're allowed to park, cost for space, something about the key fob and returning it at the end, etc.

All of those show a licence to park from the owner of the space - the landlord - to you, giving you a far, far supporter licence to any supposedly offered by the signs.

You have to read other residential cases, as unles you show us the entir lease, you're going to have to do the legwork.
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Alfa Driver21
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 13:51
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 12:59) *
You stated you pay for the spot. So that CANNOT be the only part of your lease that covers parking - by definition if you're paying for that spot, the amount must be in the contract

You MUST have something stating you're allowed to park, cost for space, something about the key fob and returning it at the end, etc.

All of those show a licence to park from the owner of the space - the landlord - to you, giving you a far, far supporter licence to any supposedly offered by the signs.

You have to read other residential cases, as unles you show us the entir lease, you're going to have to do the legwork.


No there’s nothing else in my tenancy contract about parking, see attached screenshot.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 15:57
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You said "and I pay for this parking spot as it is included and tied to my rent. "
This was wrong then?
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Alfa Driver21
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 16:43
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 16:57) *
You said "and I pay for this parking spot as it is included and tied to my rent. "
This was wrong then?


I think my wording was unclear, apologies, I pay rent to stay in flat 44 in the complex and subsequently I have parking permits to park in bay 44. The bays are allocated to the corresponding flat numbers and only those who live in the flat (and/or have the permit) can park in the bays.

I was parked in bay 44 when I was hit with the PCN and I am the only driver in my flat so I have access to both parking permits for this bay - I just forgot to display a permit that night, a common and easy to make mistake.
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Jlc
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 16:46
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QUOTE (Alfa Driver21 @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 17:43) *
- I just forgot to display a permit that night, a common and easy to make mistake.

And the mistake that PPC's love. They have no interest in ensuring the parking is proper - they want their slice as it's their only income.

If you had a separate contract for the parking then that may have rendered their signs confetti.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 19:06
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So your lease is telling you to use bay 44 and display your permit. As previously said you do not need a contract to park as you already gave one.

Ask your landlord if they own bay 444
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