PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 bus lane PCN Luton while driving a rented car
dodolmik
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 19:50
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22
Joined: 16 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,437



All this happened on 07.06.2018 while driving a rented car in Luton, and I was looking for a Hotel at The Mall. I was following the GPS and unintentionally after the traffic light on Park Street I noticed I entered the 'Only Bus' lane, but there was no way to reverse, so I had to continue on Church Street. The next day I left on holiday for two months. I had no idea about these penalties until I checked my Credit Card and noticed two Administration Fees of £42x2 from Hertz. I sent them and e-mail asking for what I've been charged. They replied to me on 30.06.2018, so even if I wanted pay on the 14 days I couldn't, because I wasn't noticed. Now after 2 months, Hertz charged me again with £90x2. A total of: £ 264 !!!!!

What should I do to get my money back? Who am I supposed to deal with at this point?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
4 Pages V  « < 2 3 4  
Start new topic
Replies (60 - 69)
Advertisement
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 19:50
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
hcandersen
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 16:31
Post #61


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,053
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



And have you got back to Hertz.

You are still in the fact finding phase.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 20:25
Post #62


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (dodolmik @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 16:33) *
I called my bank today and they said that my request claim for the two £90 has been rejected because there is not enough evidence. They sent me a letter but didn't arrived yet. Once I get the letter I will print out all e-mail correspondence from Hertz. Is there anything else that I should mention? When I told them that Hertz has breached the contract the bank requested a copy of the rental contract (terms and conditions).

When you get the letter from the bank post a redacted copy on here and I'll draft a reply.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
dodolmik
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:25
Post #63


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22
Joined: 16 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,437



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 21:25) *
QUOTE (dodolmik @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 16:33) *
I called my bank today and they said that my request claim for the two £90 has been rejected because there is not enough evidence. They sent me a letter but didn't arrived yet. Once I get the letter I will print out all e-mail correspondence from Hertz. Is there anything else that I should mention? When I told them that Hertz has breached the contract the bank requested a copy of the rental contract (terms and conditions).

When you get the letter from the bank post a redacted copy on here and I'll draft a reply.


Thanks. It should be better now.

This post has been edited by dodolmik: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:45
Attached File(s)
Attached File  BARCLETTER.pdf ( 379.09K ) Number of downloads: 19
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 20:46
Post #64


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,053
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



As I posted previously, ‘But they apply a caveat which is that if upon investigation they find that the claim is not made out they reserve the right to reverse the reversal.’

And this is exactly the case, the 2*£42 ‘credits’ are conditional, they have not refunded these amounts unconditionally.

If they do not find that your claim is valid they will reverse the transactions and debit your account.

Have you responded to Hertz as suggested?

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 20:16
Post #65


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



You need to upload the rental agreement.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
dodolmik
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 08:44
Post #66


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22
Joined: 16 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,437



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 21:16) *
You need to upload the rental agreement.


I don't have it. This is all I could find on Hertz's website.

https://images.hertz.com/pdfs/RT_FULL_EU_EN.pdf

https://www.hertz.co.uk/rentacar/reservatio...GB/LHRT50/FINES

This post has been edited by dodolmik: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 09:11
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 21:48
Post #67


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Draft for the bank

They want documents, let's send them documents. Firstly, send them the underacted PCNs you put in post 9, and highlight the section about making representations if you're a hire company and the car was hired at the time of the contravention (this should be somewhere on the back of the PCN).

And send http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/27...5/made/data.pdf (highlighted section 5(2)(b)), http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/27...9/made/data.pdf (highlight section 9(2)(d)), https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/4...pter/5/data.pdf and http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/1...ion/49/data.pdf and http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/1...ion/56/data.pdf

And a print out of this: https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/t...s-bus-lane-pcn/


--------------------------
Dear Sir or Madam,

The two £90 charges applied to my account by Hertz are illegal and I shall take this opportunity to explain why these charges are unlawful and in breach of contract. As the attached penalty charge notices show, these amounts relate to alleged bus lane violations that occurred in Luton, these penalties were for an amount of £60, discounted to £30 if paid within 30 days. As the Penalty Charge Notice explains, when such a charge is received by a rental company, the rental company can transfer liability to the person who has hired the car, by ticking the relevant box on the representations form and supplying a copy of the rental agreement. In these circumstances, the council would cancel the Penalty Charge Notice issued to the rental company, and a new PCN would be issued to the driver.

This is a statutory procedure laid out in section 5(2)(b) of The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005, which provides that responsibility for the PCN in these circumstances lies with the hirer and not the rental company, and regulation 9(2)(d), which provides that a rental company can challenge a PCN on the basis that it is a rental company and responsibility lies with the person who hired the car, I enclose copies of these regulations for your perusal.

Had the correct procedure been followed (and I remind you this is a procedure set in law), the PCN issued to Hertz would have been cancelled by the council and a new PCN would have been issued to me in the amount of £60, discounted to £30 if paid promptly. The new PCN would have also given me the opportunity to challenge the PCN with the council, and in the event of an unsuccessful challenge I would have had a statutory right to challenge the PCN at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, I enclose a copy of the statutory process as outlined on the Traffic Penalty Tribunal website.

Had Hertz acted with a minimum level of competency, they would have written to the council under regulation 9(2) together with a copy of the rental agreement, and that would have been the end of their involvement: I would have received my own PCN and I would have then had the choice of either paying the discounted £30 penalty, or challenging the matter through the tribunal.

Hertz would have still acted unlawfully, but would be on slightly less shaky ground, if they had promptly paid the £30 charge and then tried to recover that. However this would still be unlawful and I would like to explain why. As is obvious, a penalty charge notice is a civil matter between the person liability for the PCN and the council. Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights provides that: "In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law.", in relation to bus lane penalties Parliament has established that the independent and impartial tribunal established by law is the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. By denying me my right to take the matter to the tribunal, Hertz have purported to deprive me on my rights under Article 6 of the ECHR, which is incorporated into UK law by the Human Rights Act 1998. Again I cannot stress enough that the right to take a case to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal is a statutory right enacted by Parliament, and Hertz have no authority to circumvent this.

But in any event the penalty should never have exceeded £60, and it is only because of Hertz's incompetence that the penalty escalated to £90. The full penalty is £60, the penalty can only increase to £90 if the penalty is ignored and the council issue a Charge Certificate, which is the first step required in order for the council to send bailiffs to collect the money. If Hertz neither appealed the penalty to have liability properly transferred to me, nor promptly paid the charge, then due to their own incompetence they caused themselves a loss of £90 x 2 and I cannot be held responsible for this.

I also draw your attention to section 49 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 which provides that:

Every contract to supply a service is to be treated as including a term that the trader
must perform the service with reasonable care and skill.


It is obvious that if Hertz had dealt with this matter with reasonable care and skill, they would have followed the process set out in law to transfer liability to me, or if they had only been a little bit incompetent, they might have paid the penalty at the £30 level and then charged this amount. The fact that things got so out of hand that the council increased the penalties to £90 and was on the verge of sending the bailiffs in clearly shows that not only were Hertz incompetent, they failed to act with any care or skill whatsoever, indeed it is fair to say they were careless. Hertz are therefore in breach of the term included into the contract by section 49 above, because they did not act with reasonable care and skill.

Section 56 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 provides that, where a trader is in breach of contract, the consumer has a right to a price reduction which can be the whole amount.

In summary, Hertz:

1) Ignored the legal process set out in law to have the PCNs cancelled and re-issued to me
2) In failing to transfer the PCNs to me, Hertz breached my human rights under Article 6 of ECHR, by preventing me from taking my case to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal
3) In allowing things to escalate to the Charge Certificate stage, it allowed the penalty to escalate to £90 (Which is relevant considering that, even if I had lost my case at the Tribunal, I would have only had to pay the standard £60 penalty)
4) In acting in such a blase and incompetent manner, it clearly breached the implied contractual term that requires Hertz to act with reasonable care and diligence.

For all of the above reasons, Hertz is not entitled, either contractually or under the bus lane regulations, to recover the two £90 charges from me. Hertz have only ended up paying these inflated charges due to their own incompetence, and I am not responsible for their incompetence. The two £90 charges applied to my account are therefore unlawful and should be reversed.

Of course, I am more than happy for Hertz to take this up with me in the small claims court should they wish to dispute this further, but in the interim I trust you will now reverse the charges.

Yours faithfully
------------------------

As hcandersen says, have you been in touch with Hertz? The best outcome here would be to persuade the bank to reverse the charges, and persuade Hertz that fighting this isn't worth the hassle.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 21:53


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 06:06
Post #68


Member


Group: Closed
Posts: 9,710
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



Excellent letter but I would also refer the Bank to this Pepipoo thread----they would get a better understanding of the circumstances and the gross incompetence of the hirer than reading legislation.

Mick
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 07:22
Post #69


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,053
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Very good, but not my style and IMO not the horse for this course.

The more complex you make it, the more difficult you make matters for the bank.

This is not an appeal to a court, it’s a simple argument to a bank.

The bank will simply contact Hertz and therefore the OP should simply and IMO without reference to such detail set out the story.

And as the bank will simply put this matter to Hertz, probably a rather larger customer of the bank than the OP, then the OP should simply wait until they’ve finished fact finding with Hertz. All you want from Hertz is a recognition that they erred, which from what we know IMO is not too far away if you keep asking simple questions.

I make this 6 references to simple.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 14:57
Post #70


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 07:06) *
Excellent letter but I would also refer the Bank to this Pepipoo thread----they would get a better understanding of the circumstances and the gross incompetence of the hirer than reading legislation.

Mick

The bank won't read this thread, I doubt they would even be able to access it.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 08:22) *
Very good, but not my style and IMO not the horse for this course.

The more complex you make it, the more difficult you make matters for the bank.

In practice this approach is likely to see the issue dealt with by a more senior / experienced member of staff.

We don't know if Hertz bank with the same bank but even if they do, that will make absolutely no difference whatsoever.

I should also say I have some inside knowledge of how banks deal with such matters.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V  « < 2 3 4
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 11:09
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here