PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

18 Points and potential ban!?
thecarsalesman
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 08:55
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 14 May 2017
Member No.: 91,964



So I have found myself in a bit of a pickle.

My car is off the road so I’m having to hire one for a few days so I went online to get the driving licence share code for the hire company only to discover that I’ve recently been given 6 points for failing to name the driver. I’ve haven’t had a NIP or anything. Given that I rarely travel outside of Liverpool I called Merseyside police about it and they said it was from them and there are two others for which I should have had a court notice to respond to in order to save myself from a ban!

I split from my girlfriend early summer and temporarily moved in with a friend so I hadn’t updated my licence address. I’m still here and my licence is still registered to our old place - she no longer lives there either as she couldn’t afford the rent without me. Complete oversight on my part.

What can I do? Can I get these 6 points removed? What about the pending 12 points?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 10)
Advertisement
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 08:55
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
666
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 09:01
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,300
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Member No.: 47,602



QUOTE (thecarsalesman @ Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 08:55) *
So I have found myself in a bit of a pickle.

My car is off the road so I’m having to hire one for a few days so I went online to get the driving licence share code for the hire company only to discover that I’ve recently been given 6 points for failing to name the driver. I’ve haven’t had a NIP or anything. Given that I rarely travel outside of Liverpool I called Merseyside police about it and they said it was from them and there are two others for which I should have had a court notice to respond to in order to save myself from a ban!

I split from my girlfriend early summer and temporarily moved in with a friend so I hadn’t updated my licence address. I’m still here and my licence is still registered to our old place - she no longer lives there either as she couldn’t afford the rent without me. Complete oversight on my part.

What can I do? Can I get these 6 points removed? What about the pending 12 points?

What was the original offence for which you failed to name the driver? Were you the driver?

BTW the address on your licence isn't the problem - it's the address on your V5C (log book).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
thecarsalesman
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 09:24
Post #3


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 14 May 2017
Member No.: 91,964



QUOTE (666 @ Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 09:01) *
QUOTE (thecarsalesman @ Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 08:55) *
So I have found myself in a bit of a pickle.

My car is off the road so I’m having to hire one for a few days so I went online to get the driving licence share code for the hire company only to discover that I’ve recently been given 6 points for failing to name the driver. I’ve haven’t had a NIP or anything. Given that I rarely travel outside of Liverpool I called Merseyside police about it and they said it was from them and there are two others for which I should have had a court notice to respond to in order to save myself from a ban!

I split from my girlfriend early summer and temporarily moved in with a friend so I hadn’t updated my licence address. I’m still here and my licence is still registered to our old place - she no longer lives there either as she couldn’t afford the rent without me. Complete oversight on my part.

What can I do? Can I get these 6 points removed? What about the pending 12 points?

What was the original offence for which you failed to name the driver? Were you the driver?

BTW the address on your licence isn't the problem - it's the address on your V5C (log book).


V5C unchanged too.

First and third we’re definitely me, both qualify for a speed awareness course. Second definitely wasn’t me as I would have been on a train at the time. Would have been my brother, of course he doesn’t remember but he is the only other person who drives my car.

All speeding offences. Slightly over in a 30.

This post has been edited by thecarsalesman: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 09:24
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Gerfc1
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 09:45
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,271
Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Member No.: 78,384



You need to update your V5C to your current address


You can find which court which should be shown in your view your driving licence online and ask the court to do a statutory declaration.


See on the forum on how to do the statutory declaration. Once it is accepted then you can plea not guilty to both speeding and failure to identify driver charge. Speak to the prosecutor asking if he will drop the failure to identify drover charge if you plea guilty to speeding.

Do it once your statutory declaration is accepted and then ask to drop the failure to identify.

You could ask the magistrate to sentence you at the Fixed Penalty rate if you were just over the speed limit.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 09:46
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,200
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



So you moved and failed to update the registered keeper address, that's going to put you very much on the back foot with respect to the failing to furnish charges, most courts will consider keeping your V5c address up to date as 'reasonable diligence'. Case law is 'Whiteside' and although not directly analogous and the differences can be argued, I wouldn't really give them any real chance of success.

If you were driving it's common to be able to do a 'plea bargain' where you agree to plead guilty to the original (speeding in this case) offence in exchange for them agreeing to drop the S172 failing to furnish offence.

When you are not driving this option is clearly not available.

This will leave you on at best 1x6 points and 2x3 and still facing a (12 points) totting ban.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
thecarsalesman
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 10:14
Post #6


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 14 May 2017
Member No.: 91,964



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 09:46) *
So you moved and failed to update the registered keeper address, that's going to put you very much on the back foot with respect to the failing to furnish charges, most courts will consider keeping your V5c address up to date as 'reasonable diligence'. Case law is 'Whiteside' and although not directly analogous and the differences can be argued, I wouldn't really give them any real chance of success.

If you were driving it's common to be able to do a 'plea bargain' where you agree to plead guilty to the original (speeding in this case) offence in exchange for them agreeing to drop the S172 failing to furnish offence.

When you are not driving this option is clearly not available.

This will leave you on at best 1x6 points and 2x3 and still facing a (12 points) totting ban.


Yes my stay at my friends was supposed to be temporary, maybe a few weeks while I found something more permanent but he then lost his job so I’ve mainly stayed to help him out with the rent here. Good deeds are overrated lol.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 10:24
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,200
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



Why you were there is largely irrelevant, you just had to register your car at an address at which you could be contacted. That you didn't get the notices shows you failed to do that unfortunately. Failing to correctly register your car is a separate criminal offence although one that is rarely prosecuted.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
andy_foster
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 18:17
Post #8


Member
Group Icon

Group: Life Member
Posts: 24,214
Joined: 9 Sep 2004
From: Reading
Member No.: 1,624



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 09:46) *
So you moved and failed to update the registered keeper address, that's going to put you very much on the back foot with respect to the failing to furnish charges, most courts will consider keeping your V5c address up to date as 'reasonable diligence'. Case law is 'Whiteside' and although not directly analogous and the differences can be argued, I wouldn't really give them any real chance of success.

If you were driving it's common to be able to do a 'plea bargain' where you agree to plead guilty to the original (speeding in this case) offence in exchange for them agreeing to drop the S172 failing to furnish offence.

When you are not driving this option is clearly not available.

This will leave you on at best 1x6 points and 2x3 and still facing a (12 points) totting ban.


Minor point, but Whiteside was reasonable practicability. There is case law from slightly earlier than Whiteside (which was not considered in Whiteside) that determined that reasonable diligence did not predate receipt of the requirement - reasonable diligence did not require the owner of a private motor vehicle to keep a log of who drove it in case an s. 172 requirement was served.

The issue in Whiteside was whether it was reasonably practicable for him to provide the information, and the judgment was that it was open to the court to consider whether it would have been reasonably practicable for him to ensure than any such notices were brought to his attention. In the instant case, that would equate to whether it would have been reasonably practicable for the OP to ensure that the address on the V5C was one at which he could be contacted.

Courses are offered by the police as an alternative to a fixed penalty or prosecution for the underlying speeding offence (and as an alternative to the SCP having no funding and the staff being unemployed). There is no statutory basis to the courses, and they cannot be ordered or offered by the courts.

If all of the cases have progressed to court proceedings being instigated, then there is no chance of a course.

For the offences that the OP was the driver, it is generally quite trivial to do a deal with the prosecution to drop the s. 172 charge in return for the accused pleading guilty to the speeding.
For the offence that the OP believes he was on the train for, assuming that he didn't conveniently misremember in order to (in his mind) avoid totting up to 12 points, then the consensus* of opinion is that he could not plead guilty to the speeding as he was not the driver.


* The same consensus (to a large extent at least) who argue that pleading guilty to the speeding offence that the accused knows he could not have committed as he knows he was not the driver, in order to avoid the higher penalty of the s. 172 offence will quite happily advise somebody accused of (for example) driving without a seatbelt when he knows he was wearing one to pleads guilty to an offence he knows he did not commit because if he is found guilty after a trial, the effective penalty will be far harsher.


--------------------
Andy

Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Wed, 8 Dec 2021 - 02:08
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,306
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



Speed awareness courses are off the table now.

You need to contact the court (very likely they will all be the same court) and ask for a statutory declaration for the offence already tried, and details of the other two offences.

Also update your logbook now with the DVLA (it can be a correspondence address rather than your current address - e.g. parents - as long as you are contactable).

For the two offences where you know you were driving you can do a plea bargain and potentially get 3pts/£100-ish for each of those if they would normally get a fixed penalty.

The more problematic one is your second ricket. You can't do a plea bargain as you can't plead guilty to speeding, and you don't appear to have a defence to the S172 charge.

Because of that you will very likely end up with at least 12 points and banned for six months unless you can demonstrate exceptional hardship. You can either accept the ban, plead EH or try to tackle one or more of the offences (although this would be very difficult).

Either way you need to deal with this ASAP before the court bailiffs turn up, as you have already been convicted at least once in your absence. A statutory declaration resets the case to summons stage. You can either do this at a solicitors office for a small fee, or in court for free. However, if you do it in court they will likely reopen the case immediately and so you need to understand plea bargains first.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
disgrunt
post Wed, 8 Dec 2021 - 07:49
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 634
Joined: 8 Dec 2012
Member No.: 58,778



Dates please.

Offence 1:
Offence 2:
Offence 3:
Date split with GF:
Date GF moved:
Date you were found guilty in absence:

Were you on good terms with GF or was split acrimonious?
Did you get any post from that address after you left?

So far most responses have been pessimistic, which is good as it shows that you’ll be llooking at a van and therefore are likely to do the work necessary to help avoid that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NeverMind
post Wed, 8 Dec 2021 - 08:08
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 521
Joined: 15 Oct 2011
From: England
Member No.: 50,387



QUOTE (disgrunt @ Wed, 8 Dec 2021 - 07:49) *
So far most responses have been pessimistic, which is good as it shows that you’ll be llooking at a van and therefore are likely to do the work necessary to help avoid that.


What's so terrible about a van? A ban would be far worse ...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 14:36
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here