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[NIP Wizard] 2 speeding tickets on same day yet my car was at home
TJ680
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 22:06
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - December 2018
Date of the NIP: - 28 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 29 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - at 1.22am A616(T) west 880m past A61 island 1.77km Barnsley and 00.04am
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - motor trader car was insured and taxed by me
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - i was at home at the time of the offence only other people insured to drive it were home car was outside my house and the key was with me i received 2 NIPS one 00.04 and 2nd at 1.14 same road yet the car was outside my house i live about 40 miles from barnsley i contacted them they asked for photos i sent them but they are not satisfied my that my car was cloned or that there was a mistake in the reading of the registration number please help i am at my wits end

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - No
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 22:06:44 +0000

This post has been edited by TJ680: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 22:08
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post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 22:06
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Logician
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 00:24
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The usual reason for something like this is that the number has been misread, but it seems unlikely that the number was misread twice in the same way, raising the possibility of a cloned plate. You have sent the police a photo of your car, have they sent you copies of their photos? As it is a motor trade car, are you sure all the paperwork is in order? Did you actually see the car outside your house at close to the relevant times, is there another key that you know of? If the matter goes to court, could you produce any witnesses to say that the car was outside your house?


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TJ680
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 11:21
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no they havent sent photos i am just writing to them now asking for photos the paperwork was in order last time i saw the car was at around 9pm when i went home i didnt leave till 10.35 am the next day the only other key was with a family member who wasnt driving the car either next morning when i went out the car was at the same spot where i had parked it i could ask the neighbours if they came in after i did whether they had seen it parked my phone timeline shows that i came home at 9.04pm and left home next day at 10.36am
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Churchmouse
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 17:41
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QUOTE (TJ680 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 11:21) *
no they havent sent photos i am just writing to them now asking for photos the paperwork was in order last time i saw the car was at around 9pm when i went home i didnt leave till 10.35 am the next day the only other key was with a family member who wasnt driving the car either next morning when i went out the car was at the same spot where i had parked it i could ask the neighbours if they came in after i did whether they had seen it parked my phone timeline shows that i came home at 9.04pm and left home next day at 10.36am

Your recollection of events of a month ago is quite detailed. Assuming these times were not pulled from your memory, make sure your preserve the evidence in case this goes to court. The police are unlikely to send you their photos now that they have yours.

--Churchmouse
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TJ680
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 18:23
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the only reason i remember everything so well is because of my timeline on google maps on my mobile which shows where,what time and for how long i have been on the 9/12/18 it shows i went home at 9.04pm and didn't leave till 10.36am next morning if it wasnt for that i doubt if i could remember so clearly. in regards with the photos i have asked for them in the letter they sent me they asked for me to make discreet enquiries if some one had taken the car without my knowledge' i've wrote saying to help with your enquiries if you send the photos i'll see who's driving whether i can recognise them also i want to see the car photos just to note if i can see any subtle differences on the number plate or maybe a different grill or a subtle difference elsewhere i'm also thinking of sending my phone timeline which shows that i was no where near the place of the offence do you think its a good idea? i'm just shocked at what's happened

This post has been edited by TJ680: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 18:31
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peterguk
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 18:50
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QUOTE (TJ680 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 11:21) *
no they havent sent photos i am just writing to them now asking for photos the paperwork was in order last time i saw the car was at around 9pm when i went home i didnt leave till 10.35 am the next day the only other key was with a family member who wasnt driving the car either next morning when i went out the car was at the same spot where i had parked it i could ask the neighbours if they came in after i did whether they had seen it parked my phone timeline shows that i came home at 9.04pm and left home next day at 10.36am


Do you know 100% guaranteed the car was not moved that night? If yes, then why ask the neighbours? Or is there a possibility the car was driven that night?

This post has been edited by peterguk: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 18:50


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TJ680
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 18:59
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i am near enough 100% certain it hadn't been moved.only reason asking the neighbours is just to confirm that it hadn't been moved. to be honest with you there isn't any possibility of it being driven that night as i had a key and a family member had the other key and both of us were home that night
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BaggieBoy
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 19:09
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I find asking the neighbours a little strange, if my neighbours asked me if their car moved even yesterday I would have no clue. Why would they remember something so unremarkable from over a month ago?
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Redivi
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 19:20
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If the car was 40 miles away at 1.15 am, a neighbour might remember it returning at about 2 am but even that's unlikely to be remembered more than a couple of days later

Do the NIPs say which direction the car was travelling ?

A car travelling way from the OP's house at the later time is unlikely to be his own

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TJ680
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 19:23
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QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 19:09) *
I find asking the neighbours a little strange, if my neighbours asked me if their car moved even yesterday I would have no clue. Why would they remember something so unremarkable from over a month ago?

i understand what youre saying and its right but the situation i am in its just trying to find out what happened if anyone remembers anything even something trivial
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TJ680
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 19:35
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 19:20) *
If the car was 40 miles away at 1.15 am, a neighbour might remember it returning at about 2 am but even that's unlikely to be remembered more than a couple of days later

Do the NIPs say which direction the car was travelling ?

A car travelling way from the OP's house at the later time is unlikely to be his own

i received two tickets one travelling east 00.04 on the 10/12/18 and one travelling west at 1.14 on the 10/12/18 also on my street a couple of the neighbours work in a restaurant and they come home from work late alos in my street if my car had been moved it would be difficult to get the same spot back as the car would have had to leave at around 10.30 to 11ish to get the 1st ticket and would have to be back at around 2.30 after the second ticket hence why i am pretty certain it had not been moved
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Fredd
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 20:14
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QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 00:24) *
If the matter goes to court, could you produce any witnesses to say that the car was outside your house?


QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 18:50) *
Do you know 100% guaranteed the car was not moved that night? If yes, then why ask the neighbours?


It's a bit rich for people to be advising the OP that they need to find any possible witnesses, and then others criticise them for trying to do exactly that. Heads I win, tails you lose?


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TJ680
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 20:56
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i am quite certain my car wasnt moved but the situation i am in dictates that i get as much proof of where i was and the family members who are insured to drive the car were and where my car was and also would the evidence of my timeline off my phone which shows where i was at the time of the speeding offence be accepted? and do you think i should print them off and send them to prove where i was
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TJ680
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 21:08
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 21:03) *
QUOTE (TJ680 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 20:56) *
i am quite certain my car wasnt moved but the situation i am in dictates that i get as much proof of where i was and the family members who are insured to drive the car were and where my car was and also would the evidence of my timeline off my phone which shows where i was at the time of the speeding offence be accepted? and do you think i should print them off and send them to prove where i was


In terms of evidence, your phone records only prove where your phone was, not where you or anyone else was.

i thought it was worth asking so really i need the photos of the police to confirm that i wasn't driving i have been told now that they have the photos of my car off me that they wont send theirs is that correct?
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peterguk
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 21:21
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QUOTE (TJ680 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 21:08) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 21:03) *
QUOTE (TJ680 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 20:56) *
i am quite certain my car wasnt moved but the situation i am in dictates that i get as much proof of where i was and the family members who are insured to drive the car were and where my car was and also would the evidence of my timeline off my phone which shows where i was at the time of the speeding offence be accepted? and do you think i should print them off and send them to prove where i was


In terms of evidence, your phone records only prove where your phone was, not where you or anyone else was.

i thought it was worth asking so really i need the photos of the police to confirm that i wasn't driving i have been told now that they have the photos of my car off me that they wont send theirs is that correct?


They are under no obligation to disclose any evidence to you at this stage.


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Churchmouse
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 23:50
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QUOTE (TJ680 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 21:08) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 21:03) *
QUOTE (TJ680 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 20:56) *
i am quite certain my car wasnt moved but the situation i am in dictates that i get as much proof of where i was and the family members who are insured to drive the car were and where my car was and also would the evidence of my timeline off my phone which shows where i was at the time of the speeding offence be accepted? and do you think i should print them off and send them to prove where i was


In terms of evidence, your phone records only prove where your phone was, not where you or anyone else was.

i thought it was worth asking so really i need the photos of the police to confirm that i wasn't driving i have been told now that they have the photos of my car off me that they wont send theirs is that correct?

They might, but once you go from "photos to identify the driver" to "something fishy's going on", based on the information we have seen on this forum over the years, they seem to clam up. In "cloned plate" situations they will usually ask you for evidence/photos of your vehicle, but they don't reciprocate, possibly because that information could be used to pervert the course of justice. It doesn't hurt to ask, though.

--Churchmouse
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cp8759
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 01:56
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 23:50) *
QUOTE (TJ680 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 21:08) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 21:03) *
QUOTE (TJ680 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 20:56) *
i am quite certain my car wasnt moved but the situation i am in dictates that i get as much proof of where i was and the family members who are insured to drive the car were and where my car was and also would the evidence of my timeline off my phone which shows where i was at the time of the speeding offence be accepted? and do you think i should print them off and send them to prove where i was


In terms of evidence, your phone records only prove where your phone was, not where you or anyone else was.

i thought it was worth asking so really i need the photos of the police to confirm that i wasn't driving i have been told now that they have the photos of my car off me that they wont send theirs is that correct?

They might, but once you go from "photos to identify the driver" to "something fishy's going on", based on the information we have seen on this forum over the years, they seem to clam up. In "cloned plate" situations they will usually ask you for evidence/photos of your vehicle, but they don't reciprocate, possibly because that information could be used to pervert the course of justice. It doesn't hurt to ask, though.

--Churchmouse

Why would they reciprocate? If your house gets burgled, and you have CCTV that catches the suspect, and the police find CCTV evidence from a nearby camera of a suspect leaving the area, they're not going to give you that evidence just because you ask. Apart from anything else, there would be no policing purpose in providing such evidence to the victim.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Jlc
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 08:46
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QUOTE (TJ680 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 21:08) *
i need the photos of the police to confirm that i wasn't driving

You could prove you weren't driving but could still be convicted of a s172 offence. Don't defend it on that basis.


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Redivi
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 10:44
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Isn't it the case that, when the registered keeper denies the car was there, it's for the police to prove on the balance of probabilities that it was ?

Is it possible that the car was there recently but at a different date or time ?
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Churchmouse
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 11:10
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 01:56) *
Why would they reciprocate? If your house gets burgled, and you have CCTV that catches the suspect, and the police find CCTV evidence from a nearby camera of a suspect leaving the area, they're not going to give you that evidence just because you ask. Apart from anything else, there would be no policing purpose in providing such evidence to the victim.

Meaning, even if they would have been inclined to provide photos to "identify the driver" beforehand, they are unlikely to do so after the RK has raised the possibility of a mistaken identity of the vehicle. Perhaps, also, because providing the recognisable photograph of a "crime-committing driver" of a different vehicle would be the "personal data" of a third party under the DPA?

--Churchmouse
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