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Totting up query, Some points have expired and now only have 6 points
HelpDad
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 18:32
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Hi - I'm writing on behalf of my dad and this is my first post.... It's a bit complicated so I hope I manage to explain it ok.

My query relates to my dad totting up 12 points but now 3 of the points have expired so he is in fact going to court with only 6 points on his licence.

My dad has the following points:
12 August 2015 3 points (- EXPIRED 11 August 2018)
21 July 2016 3 points
31 May 2018 3 points (from Leicestershire)

While his licence was sent off to Leicestershire for the above 3 points he received a NIP from Oxfordshire for driving at 40 in a 30. (The offence date was 23/05/18, so actually before the Leicestershire offence). He was offered a Fixed Penalty Notice. We thought that he had got lucky and their computer hadn't cross referenced as the offence dates were so close. He received acknowledgement on 16th August and £100 fine was taken. We thought this was the end of it.

However 3 months later on 21/11/18 he received a letter saying that he was in fact not suitable for a Fixed Penalty and that the alleged offence will now be considered for normal court proceedings.

He was given a Single Justice Procedure Notice which he accepted and filled in as it is my understanding that the SJP cannot enforce a driving ban. We filled out the form and waited.

Then on 14th January 2019 he received a letter to say that the case is not suitable for SJP (quite why they offer this if its not suitable!) and it will now be referred to the magistrates court in Oxford.

So the question I have is: I know that the offence states that you cannot have 12 points in a 3 year period and I admit that this has happened BUT he will go to court with 6 active points - what are the chances of him just being given 3 further points to take him to 9 points rather than a 6 month ban?

My dad is 73 and not in great health and this has now dragged on for 8 months. At every opportunity he has done what has been asked and then for the courts/police to change their mind (or the computers catch up) and change what they request from him.

In terms of the worst case scenario, I know that the only way to not get a ban is to show exceptional hardship. I'm not sure he'll get away with this. However, he will present the following mitigation - do you think this will help?
"When I retired I was lonely and looked for a job to help me meet people and found a driving job one day a week delivering to delis around the country - the last 3 speeding fines have been whilst doing this job. As a result of the last 3 penalty points I have lost my job. I now feel not only lonely but embarrassed and so very sorry I was unknowingly speeding in areas unfamiliar to me. As a result of the possible ban hanging over me for the past 8 months, I have been suffering from severe anxiety (for which I have seen my GP) and don't like to drive and have become more isolated. I have also been under the care of the hospital for stomach ulcers and have further appointments which without a driving licence will be very hard for me to attend. I have no one else who would be able to take me."

I hope I explained this so you can understand and will be grateful for any advice offered.

Thanks in advance.

This post has been edited by HelpDad: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 18:54
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post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 18:32
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Jlc
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 18:47
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It’s always the date of the offence that is used.

So 12 points in any 3 year rolling period. Can you confirm each offence date? (I think one is typo should be 2015? So meets the totting criteria)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 18:50


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

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HelpDad
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 18:55
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thank you for your reply - edited to change the points to the correct date.

I'm presuming you are saying that it looks as though it will be a driving ban?

This post has been edited by HelpDad: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 18:56
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Jlc
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 20:21
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So, he did accumulate 12 points during a 3 year period.

Although some points became 'inactive' and time was taken to process the offences it doesn't stop the totting process.

So, as you note he can submit an exceptional hardship plea. The impact on others usually carries more weight but they can consider his circumstances. The 6 month ban can be reduced, potentially to none.

But I wouldn't say in the plea that he doesn't like to drive considering he his trying to keep his licence... What about public transport/taxi's?

QUOTE (HelpDad @ Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 18:32) *
He was offered a Fixed Penalty Notice. We thought that he had got lucky and their computer hadn't cross referenced as the offence dates were so close.

He may have got 'lucky' but one of the conditions would have been that it didn't trigger totting (i.e. 12 points).

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 20:17


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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HelpDad
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 20:30
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Thank for the advice Jlc - I acknowledge that the offence has occurred (12 points in a 3 year period) and he has pleaded guilty. I just wondered if anyone had experience of this and whether magistrates are less likely to ban with expired points?

I don't think that he has any chance of being successful with the exceptional hardship route...
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southpaw82
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 20:37
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What do you mean by “less likely to ban”? If he tots the ban is obligatory unless exceptional hardship succeeds.


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HelpDad
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 20:41
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southpaw82, my query was whether magistrates would, in any circumstance, give him 3 penalty points (where he would therefore be on 9 points) and a fine...
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Jlc
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 20:42
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Indeed, how the points were accumulated are not considered in regards to the EH plea.

There's nothing to be lost in attempting a plea and everything to gain. But from what we know so far the chances aren't looking great.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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andy_foster
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 20:44
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It makes no difference how many points he has now - it is how many points the court must take into consideration when he is convicted - which unless there is some obscure loophole preventing them from taking the subsequent offence into consideration, would be 12 or more.


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southpaw82
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 20:47
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QUOTE (HelpDad @ Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 20:41) *
southpaw82, my query was whether magistrates would, in any circumstance, give him 3 penalty points (where he would therefore be on 9 points) and a fine...

Wouldn’t the 3 further points mean he had accumulated 12 points in a 3 year period (measured from offence date to offence date)? If so, he would not be on 9 points for totting up purposes (which is all that matters at the moment), he would be on 12.

Or, to put it another way, there are plenty of circumstances in which the court would award 3 points and a fine. They would, however, be obliged to ban him for 6 months unless exceptional hardship was found.


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Jlc
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 20:49
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 20:44) *
...which unless there is some obscure loophole preventing them from taking the subsequent offence into consideration

That's an interesting thought but they seemed to have identified the totting situation that resulted in the refunding and prosecution.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 00:38
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He appears to have committed four offences within a three year period, so the court would have to consider disqualification. As you say, exceptional hardship is the only reason available to him to persuade the court against disqualification, and his case for exceptional hardship would not be very persuasive unless he can perhaps get a letter from his doctor directly linking his severe anxiety to the prospect of not being able to drive, and the anxiety would have to be severe enough to be a health problem. He could find other means of attending future hospital appointments, such as using a taxi if there is no public transport, or a hospital car service.


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Starworshipper12
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 19:19
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And also isn’t (severe) anxiety something the DVLA need to know about? Speaking from experience it makes it dangerous to be on the road while in that state, which perhaps wouldn’t be the best thing to mention in an EH plea??

This post has been edited by Starworshipper12: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 20:02
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Logician
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 22:21
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QUOTE (Starworshipper12 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 19:19) *
And also isn’t (severe) anxiety something the DVLA need to know about? Speaking from experience it makes it dangerous to be on the road while in that state, which perhaps wouldn’t be the best thing to mention in an EH plea??


Except the severe anxiety is said to have been brought on by not driving, so if he IS driving he should not be having it.



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Starworshipper12
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 22:50
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Fair point Logician, but (again speaking from experience) when one is forced to seek medical attention for severe mental health distress, its not something that suddenly disappears when back behind the wheel of a car.

I gave up driving because of panic attacks which were related to who knows what, but they came on damn quick when I was in 3 lanes of fast moving traffic. IMHO severe anxiety isn’t the same as worrying you’d be deprived of something, much like depression isn’t merely feeling sad.

This post has been edited by Starworshipper12: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 02:03
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jdh
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 11:08
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I'm confused by the timeline. If the active case is for the 23/05/18 offence date then at that time he only had 6 points plus these 3 leaving him on 9, shouldn't it be the offence dated 31/05/18 that gets rolled back and processed through the courts instead?
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Jlc
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 11:10
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That was the possible 'loophole' Andy mentioned previously... But I don't think it has legs. (After all totting up has occurred but was not triggered by this specific offence itself)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 11:11


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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