PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

UK Car Park Management
MJ85
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 11:55
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 4 Aug 2017
Member No.: 93,354



Hi all, wonder if you can help.

Are these PCNs genuine and need to be paid or are they not enforceable?

Please let me know as soon as possible.

Thanks all and keep up the good work.

This post has been edited by MJ85: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 14:15
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 11:55
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
emanresu
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 12:17
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,017
Joined: 24 Aug 2007
From: Parking Support Groups
Member No.: 13,324



Why does it say "To whom this may concern". Is there not a specific name in the address?

Trying checking with the DVLA to see if UKCPM have accessed the keeper's details? Looks like the pic was taken by a neighbour on a commission. Pretty poor pics.

This post has been edited by emanresu: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 12:18


--------------------
Where there is a claim - there is a counterclaim.
Are Parking companies misusing your personal data or interfering with your lease? Counterclaims are only £25. Makes them sit up and take notice. For leaseholds, join in the Managing agents too. Since the purpose of these claims is to frighten you, give them something to be frightened of.
Subject Access Requests to the DVLA?Find out who accessed your data and when. Try SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. [Apologies if it does not work]
Double Dip / ANPR FaultsThe BPA Report on ANPR Double Dips is here. Ideal case for a counterclaim (see above).
Daily Court List. See who is doing what and where here
Printing and posting Witness Statements. Easy and cheap way DoxDirect
What is court like. A District Judge's view
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 12:18
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8,637
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



A little bit of a background would help. Is this residential? It could be enforceable but then this isn't called Fightback for nothing.

The location is a bit vague, There are many Shenley Roads and the NTK is supposed to identify the relevant land. There's no period of parking, despite what thy say, and no date of sending, which is not the same as date of issue.

However the major point is that it was not received with 14 days. I presume that the stamp on the letter is the date received, a Monday. It would appear that they prepared the notice on Wednesday the 24th but didn't actually post it till the Thursday and it did not get delivered until the Monday following. Have you kept the envelope?

I would suggest this as a first response to this one:

Removed because of later information

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 12:39
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MJ85
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 12:21
Post #4


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 4 Aug 2017
Member No.: 93,354



The lease company got the letter and has sent it to the driver.

It was outside residential flats which is next to a civic centre.

This post has been edited by MJ85: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 13:50
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 12:49
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8,637
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



That's why we need the FULL story !!

The lease company cannot, by any stretch of imagination, tell the parking company who was driving. They weren't there. They have named the hirer.

Edit your posts so that the identity of the driver cannot be inferred. Use "the driver ......." etc If you don't you may be snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory And edit that posted PCN to remove the PCN number in the body of the text.

So what you have is a copy of the Notice to Keeper sent to you as the hirer by the hire company? That notice was out of time but that will be kept in reserve.

You wait for your own notice to Hirer/Keeper and take note if there are other documents included.

We are talking Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 The Notice to Keeper that the hire compnay received was issued using paragraph 9. As the hirer you will be relying paragraph 14. The usual failure is 14 (2) (a). Come back when you get that Notice to Hirer in your own name. Do not appeal straight away.

The use of the term "Unauthorised Parking" could be interesting. Can you get photos of the signs please and if they were lit. If the signs say "no unauthorised Parking" then there can be no contract in place and no contract = no payment due. If you were parked in the road check if the road is an adopted road by asking the council.

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 21:38
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MJ85
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 14:17
Post #6


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 4 Aug 2017
Member No.: 93,354



QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 12:49) *
So what you have is a copy of the Notice to Keeper sent to you as the hirer by the hire company? That notice was out of time but that will be kept in reserve.



How was this out of time? The alleged offence took place on 13th October and the notice was issued on 24th so sent either 24th or 25th I imagine. Does it need to be received within 14 days? How can that be monitored?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 16:20
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,385
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



1) not an offence. Civil matter only
2) yes, NTK has to be received within 14 Dats, day 1 us the day after the event.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MJ85
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 21:09
Post #8


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 4 Aug 2017
Member No.: 93,354



QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 16:20) *
1) not an offence. Civil matter only
2) yes, NTK has to be received within 14 Dats, day 1 us the day after the event.


So do you suggest this is appealed or it is just left as it is not enforceable?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 21:13
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,385
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



You appeal to the ppc in basically every instance. This is no different. It's your chance to sort your stall out, and means to a court you look reasonable.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 21:45
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8,637
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



Wait for your own Notice to Keeper, as suggested in post #5. (Did you read it). Yes the original NTK was out of time but it was not addressed to you, though it appears you have been given a copy

You were given a link to POFA. Have you read it?

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 21:49
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SchoolRunMum
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 22:07
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,197
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Member No.: 32,130



Whatever you do, DO NOT imply who was driving in any appeal.

Appeal as hirer/lessee like in every other case like it on here.

Dennis Basher has written a few appeals for hirers. DO NOT write your own version talking about the story of what happened or who the driver was.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MJ85
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 18:49
Post #12


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 4 Aug 2017
Member No.: 93,354



Attached is a picture of the location where the parking was. The sign is hidden under trees and not very visible in the dark.

Also attached is a picture of the sign using a flash so it is readable.

Thoughts? And where can I find appeal letter templates for both the hirer and the driver?
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 22:19
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8,637
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



THE DRIVER IS OUT OF THE EQUATION NOW !!

Since you now have your notice to hirer, without the required documents, then here is a suggested appeal:

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the hirer/keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me, the hirer keeper..

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

In addition the signage in the car park is of a “forbidding” nature. It is limited to authorised vehicles only and therefore the terms cannot apply to cars without authorisation because the signage does not offer an invitation to park on certain terms. The terms are forbidding. This means that there was never a contractual relationship with the driveer at the time. I refer you to the following case law: PCM-UK v Bull et all B4GF26K6 [2016], UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6[2016], Horizon Parking v Mr J C5GF17X2 [2016] – In all three of these cases the signage was found to be forbidding and thus only a trespass had occurred and would be a matter for the landowner.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.


Send this so that it arrives on day 19 after the date on the NTH. This is so they can't send a compliant notice in the time required.

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 23:24
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SchoolRunMum
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 23:07
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,197
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Member No.: 32,130



Perfect template, ostell.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 23:23
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8,637
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 23:07) *
Perfect template, ostell.


Glad you like it smile.gif I'm getting quite a collections now.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SchoolRunMum
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 18:40
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,197
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Member No.: 32,130



At least your templates are suited to the facts of the case, unlike some of the templates being trotted out that actually cost people money and come with a very different aim.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MJ85
post Yesterday, 10:01
Post #17


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 4 Aug 2017
Member No.: 93,354



What about a template for the 'driver'?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Yesterday, 10:21
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,385
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



There isnt one, because the driver
DOES
ABSOLUTELY
NOTHING

This entire process is handled by the legal entity known as the "hirer", who may or may not be the driver but crucially they cannot just assume who the driver is.

If they could do, then there woul dhave been no need for POFA bringing in keeper / hirer liability

If you are still unsure, you must not stay in this thread, you must get out and read around.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MJ85
post Yesterday, 15:33
Post #19


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 4 Aug 2017
Member No.: 93,354



Sorry, let my clarify. I mean for a car which is not leased as there is another car which is owed under another PCN with the same dates.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Yesterday, 15:34
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,385
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



Ok, to be clear

The driver never does anything.
Not one thing
The keeper does it all.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Tuesday, 13th November 2018 - 03:38
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.