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Lease company sending notice 60 days later, excuse 'fixed to windscreen'
blad4
post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 17:55
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Hi not sure if I am going about this right, but surely we have the right to wait for something to come in the post before we need to appeal? Because what if someone else was driving my car, or the ticket attached to the windscreen just was not there when the driver returned to the car?

So when I did receive the notice via email (not yet via post), I saw that the fine was actually issued 60 days earlier. I emailed back saying

Hi, in relation to the two emails I received on the 13th of this month, each outlining a parking fine, one of them is dated 60 days ago, and I have not received the notice in the post as of yet. After contacting the parking company, I can confirm I have missed the appeal deadline due to receiving it so late. I have looked into the laws and would not like to go any further if you are happy to accept that somewhere between yourselves and TNC Parking services the mistake was made. Below are the specifics of the email:

With the date and time being

17/08/2018 00:00

They responded with

The fine was originally fixed to the windscreen of the vehicle which would have allowed for this fine to be appealed. Please see a screen shot below of the section of the Parking Charge Notice that advises this:

TNC Parking services have obtained your... issued a parking charge notice which was fixed to the vehicle.. remains outstanding

Arval has written to the parking company and asked them to transfer liability of the fine to your address. It depends on the authority on how quickly they reissue the fine. Once you have received the fine in the post you can either pay or dispute it directly with the parking company.


Now there is no way they are getting my money, even the admin charge will get refunded. I'm just more curious as to the laws a process around this, whether I am incorrect etc
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post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 17:55
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kommando
post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 18:20
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It's not a fine but an Invoice, so have a look at Arvals T&C's and if they do not mention invoices only fines then you can reclaim any charges they apply.

Onto the PPC, they invariably get the next bit wrong and issue a new NTH (notice to hirer as the NTK notice to keeper went to Arval) without attaching the hire lease paperwork. attaching the paperwork is a requirement of POFA 2012 to make the keeper/Hirer liable. So once you get the NTH without the lease/hire papers you appeal as hirer telling them they messed up and you are not liable. There is no legal requirement to name the driver so they are left looking at themselves.
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blad4
post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 18:26
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QUOTE (kommando @ Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 18:20) *
It's not a fine but an Invoice, so have a look at Arvals T&C's and if they do not mention invoices only fines then you can reclaim any charges they apply.

Onto the PPC, they invariably get the next bit wrong and issue a new NTH (notice to hirer as the NTK notice to keeper went to Arval) without attaching the hire lease paperwork. attaching the paperwork is a requirement of POFA 2012 to make the keeper/Hirer liable. So once you get the NTH without the lease/hire papers you appeal as hirer telling them they messed up and you are not liable. There is no legal requirement to name the driver so they are left looking at themselves.


Aha many thanks!
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ostell
post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 18:59
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So when your notice to hirer arrives without the required documents you write to them so that it arrives a couple of days before day 21 after the date on the NTH so that they don't have time to correct their error.

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the hirer/keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me, the hirer keeper..

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.
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blad4
post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 19:09
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 18:59) *
So when your notice to hirer arrives without the required documents you write to them so that it arrives a couple of days before day 21 after the date on the NTH so that they don't have time to correct their error.

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the hirer/keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me, the hirer keeper..

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.


Ah amazing, thank you.

And leading up to that, I am simply stating I haven't received NTH from the lease company
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ostell
post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 19:14
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You won't get the notice to hirer from the lease compnay, it comes form the parking company

Here's POFA, have a read of it, especially section 14
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blad4
post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 21:51
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Oh excellent, thanks, giving it a read.

Something to note however is the NTH is still not here.. all I have as of yet is an email back from the 13th.. I was anticipating the thing in the post by now as it's been two weeks.

Of course they are happy enough to charge me my admin fee. Out of interest, the email includes the following:

Re: Parking Fine or Penalty Charge Notice

We have been issued with a parking fine or penalty charge notice for a vehicle that you or your company lease from us.

In line with the contract, you are now responsible for paying the charge. We have contacted the Issuer below and asked for
this to be reissued to you for payment.

If you need more information about any of the following please visit the Issuers website and enter the fine or penalty
charge notice number:

• To get a copy of the fine or penalty charge notice
• Evidence of contravention, including images from the Issuer
• Payment options
• Details on how you can appeal
We have also attached a frequently asked questions document which you might find useful
click here
for this information
You should be aware that we have charged you or your company an administration fee of £12.50 +VAT, in line with the
contract with us. This will appear in the next monthly invoice.


Yours sincerely,


Fines Team.


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kommando
post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 22:19
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Check the contract, as long as it is per their letter then your company is not liable for the £12.50 as it was a speculative invoice not a parking fine or a penalty charge notice.
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ostell
post Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 08:15
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That's a cheap service charge !

The Notice to Hire has to be with you within 21 days of the parking company receiving notification of the identity of the hirer, 14 (2), With an alleged windscreen ticket then the parking company have up to 56 days to get the PCN to the registered keeper.

As the hire company have given the hirer details to the parking company they were also supposed to forward a copy of the PCN they received to the hirer. If you haven't received that then it looks as though the hire company don't really know how to handel private parkingcompnaies.
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freddy1
post Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 19:28
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TNC are not a parking Co , TNC are debt collector , they can apply to the DVLA for your data , but not in relation to parking tickets , WHO is the parking Co that actually issued the ticket
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The Rookie
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 04:07
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 09:15) *
As the hire company have given the hirer details to the parking company they were also supposed to forward a copy of the PCN they received to the hirer. If you haven't received that then it looks as though the hire company don't really know how to handle private parking companies.

Are they? Why are they 'supposed' to do that? I'd agree its best practice but I think 'supposed' is a stretch.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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ostell
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 07:46
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 05:07) *
QUOTE (ostell @ Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 09:15) *
As the hire company have given the hirer details to the parking company they were also supposed to forward a copy of the PCN they received to the hirer. If you haven't received that then it looks as though the hire company don't really know how to handle private parking companies.

Are they? Why are they 'supposed' to do that? I'd agree its best practice but I think 'supposed' is a stretch.


9 (2) (e) (ii) and normally written into a NTK
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nigelbb
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 08:30
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QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 08:46) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 05:07) *
QUOTE (ostell @ Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 09:15) *
As the hire company have given the hirer details to the parking company they were also supposed to forward a copy of the PCN they received to the hirer. If you haven't received that then it looks as though the hire company don't really know how to handle private parking companies.

Are they? Why are they 'supposed' to do that? I'd agree its best practice but I think 'supposed' is a stretch.


9 (2) (e) (ii) and normally written into a NTK

The hire company is not "supposed" to do any of the above however if they don't then they remain liable for any unpaid parking charges incurred by the driver. It's only by fulfilling the requirements of POFA that they can transfer liability to the hirer.


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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kommando
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 10:31
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But the BPA and the hire,lease companies agreed a procedure whereby the agreements are not required so the end result is the NTH do not meet POFA 2012. The lease company's are meeting BPA's requirements so doubt they can be held liable.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 11:38
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QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 08:46) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 05:07) *
QUOTE (ostell @ Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 09:15) *
As the hire company have given the hirer details to the parking company they were also supposed to forward a copy of the PCN they received to the hirer. If you haven't received that then it looks as though the hire company don't really know how to handle private parking companies.

Are they? Why are they 'supposed' to do that? I'd agree its best practice but I think 'supposed' is a stretch.


9 (2) (e) (ii) and normally written into a NTK

Indeed, but I can't see how a defendant can use that to any advantage, it's after all an invite and I can't see where not complying creates any liability for the registered keeper as long as the driver is named.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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ostell
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 14:16
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The argument about the original NTK is getting nowhere. The OP has had nothing yet, not a copy of the original PCN from the hire company nor a NTH (with required documents) in his own in n his own right and so far he cannot be held liable for anything nor do any appealing (expect about that admin charge).

So the OP just waits.
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nigelbb
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 14:59
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QUOTE (kommando @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 11:31) *
But the BPA and the hire,lease companies agreed a procedure whereby the agreements are not required so the end result is the NTH do not meet POFA 2012. The lease company's are meeting BPA's requirements so doubt they can be held liable.

Aside from the fact that not all PPCs are members of the BPA & not all car hire companies are are members of the BVRLA it doesn't matter what agreement is in place as if the car hire don't nominate the hirer as per POFA then legally they are still on the hook for unpaid parking charges incurred by the driver. The hirer is definitely not liable if the car hire company don't transfer liability using the correct method as per POFA


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 22:25
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If I were the OP I would get the PCN number and send ostell's appeal anyway, as hirer/lessee (NEVER say who was driving as a lease case is 100% winnable if you don't).
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freddy1
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 22:38
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TNC are scum debt collectors they do not issue parking tickets WHO was the company that issued the parking ticket

This post has been edited by freddy1: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 22:39
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blad4
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 21:57
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Hi guys, got the NTK worded as 'Notice to Kepper or Hirer' today in the post. It is actually dated the 23rd of October, with the charge dating back to August 17th! And it looks like they've slapped a £25 admin charge on it.. so a grand total of £125 huh.gif huh.gif

And guys can you believe this is for my own residential space, which I pay for by proxy via my rent. So funny.. I can't understand how residents keep paying this allowing companies like this to continue being so parasitic.

QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 22:25) *
If I were the OP I would get the PCN number and send ostell's appeal anyway, as hirer/lessee (NEVER say who was driving as a lease case is 100% winnable if you don't).


I'm just wondering if this can apply to actual legit PCNs (council/tfl etc)? I'm assuming obviously it can't.. just making sure
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