PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Help needed - PCN issued to a resident
SaulGoodman
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 21:22
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31
Joined: 16 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,435



Hello all.

This is my first post on here and having spent weeks and weeks reading through the amazing information on this forum, the time has come for me to finally ask for some direct help. I'm sure my situation is similar in nature to others that have posted on here, so I apologise if this is already explained somewhere else.

I'll summarise my situation below:

Back at the start of the year I received three PCNs for 'Not Displaying a Permit' on my vehicle when it was temporarily parked outside my own home. I live in a flat, and the PPC have recently been instructed (within the last few years) to manage the area due to problems with locals using the area for parking at the local hospital.

I replied to the PPC on each occasion explaining I was a resident and asking them to cancel the PCN, but as predicted all of my appeals to them and the IAS have been rejected. I didn't hear anything from them for a while, until a few months ago when I started receiving letters from them and ZZPS requesting payment, with additional charges added. I've followed the usual advice of ignoring these as I know the DCAs are powerless.

I've read through my lease in detail and there is no mention whatsoever of permits nor any restrictions to park anywhere in the estate so I'm pretty confident I have a strong case, and I of course have explained about my rights to park as detailed in the lease, and quoted them the various case law related to similar events (Jopson, Pace, Saaed) but of course they don't want to know. I've even spoken to the landowner directly, who were very helpful, however even they haven't been able to get them to rescind their charges, so here we are.

I'm getting very hacked off with the constant mail and so now really want to take action against the PPC by issuing an LBC (and have drafted one ready), for tortious interference and DPA breaches, however I'm reluctant to actually send this as I'm not sure if it is worded the right way, and whether or not I'll actually have any success, or whether I'd be better off simply ignoring the DCA letters. From reading other threads, I know it is a good idea to send in a DPA claim after successfully defending a claim by the PPC, however I'm contemplating doing it before it gets to that point and having the upper hand.

If anyone would be willing to chip in with any feedback, suggestions or questions, anything is gratefully appreciated. If you need me to upload my draft LBC, please let me know the best way to do so and I will.

Thanks all!

This post has been edited by SaulGoodman: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 19:56
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
4 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 >  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 39)
Advertisement
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 21:22
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
SaulGoodman
post Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 17:50
Post #21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31
Joined: 16 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,435



Thanks both, I didn’t think of that! Is there anything these scammers won’t do to make money?

Having read a bit more about the DPA side of things (I just can’t help myself), I’ve seen some good advice about sending a section 10 notice first to add some weight to the quantum for relief, however with GDPR regulations now saying the company has a month to reply I’m worried about the delay this could cause and don’t want to miss an opportunity to get this resolved. Do you think it’s a better idea to simply send in the LBC with the request for compensation, or send a section 10 first? And are section 10 notices still relevant with the updates to GDPR and DPA 2018?

This post has been edited by SaulGoodman: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 17:59
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 09:51
Post #22


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,385
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



Well no.
Theyre criminals, parasites, and frankly should be put out of business tomorrow. COuld be done - remove electronic access and their "business" would not be viable.

Section 10 isnt right any more, not with new DPA from memory.
I'd just send the LBA. Just remember - if you DO send it, you MUST be prepared to follow through with it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SaulGoodman
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 10:17
Post #23


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31
Joined: 16 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,435



QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 10:51) *
Well no.
Theyre criminals, parasites, and frankly should be put out of business tomorrow. COuld be done - remove electronic access and their "business" would not be viable.

Section 10 isnt right any more, not with new DPA from memory.
I'd just send the LBA. Just remember - if you DO send it, you MUST be prepared to follow through with it.


Very true. Maybe one day!

I did think it seemed a bit out of date, I won’t bother with that one then. Oh I am very much prepared to go through with it, in fact I’m almost relishing the opportunity to remind them of the basic principles of law. I’m sure I’ll feel different when it all kicks off though...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SaulGoodman
post Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 15:39
Post #24


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31
Joined: 16 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,435



Well the paperwork has all been sent off today in a big brown envelope. Wish me luck!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SaulGoodman
post Tue, 6 Nov 2018 - 17:38
Post #25


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31
Joined: 16 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,435



Hi everyone. So I’ve had a reply from the PPC in question today for my LBC which in my opinion is woefully inadequate and almost laughable, however I was hoping to get some advice from the experts on what my next step looks like.

Im not too sure the best way to post up a copy of the letter, or should I type in what they’ve written?

Any help greatly appreciated.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lancaster
post Tue, 6 Nov 2018 - 18:24
Post #26


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 294
Joined: 1 Oct 2008
From: barnet
Member No.: 22,924



QUOTE (SaulGoodman @ Tue, 6 Nov 2018 - 17:38) *
Hi everyone. So I’ve had a reply from the PPC in question today for my LBC which in my opinion is woefully inadequate and almost laughable, however I was hoping to get some advice from the experts on what my next step looks like.

Im not too sure the best way to post up a copy of the letter, or should I type in what they’ve written?

Any help greatly appreciated.


Pepipoo gives advice on how to do this but here is my summary (assuming you are not too comfortable with tech)3 steps
1.Make their letter into a picture JPG
2.Edit that JPG to hide sensitive data
3.Host the edited (sensitve) veriosn of the letter with TINY and share the link to the letter with us
Step 1.
Take a photo of the letter (each page) using smartphone (picture) or scan it on a printer if you have one lned to your computer
If you take smartphone photo send the image to your email (and open/save it on your computer)
You now have "Letter.JPG' on computer
Step 2

Upload each page of "letter.JPG" to a website where you can blank out private dataI use
https://pixlr.com/editor/
Go there and select to
Open image from computer ('Letter.JPG')Blank out the sensitive stuff (name add etc) using the BRUSH tool (Left pallet, 4 icons down, one across - the brush)Swipe across the sensitive bits
aftr all blanking is done save this as new image "LetterBLANKED.JPG" back to your computer

Step 3
Now to share the blanked out letter
Go to
http://tinypic.com/
Upload "LetterBlanked.JPG"Use FILE, Browse to find "LetterBlanked.JPG" on your computer, selct it and then press UPLOAD
When upload completes take a COPY of the string in
"IMG code"
Come back here and PASTE that string into a further postingThe system will allow us to see the link to your letterBLANKED.JPG - which is now sitting on TINY website
When you UPLOAd it might ask you to complete and answer to a question or copy words, just complete that to pass the UPLOAD stage

Hope that helps?

This post has been edited by Lancaster: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 - 18:25
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SaulGoodman
post Tue, 6 Nov 2018 - 19:26
Post #27


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31
Joined: 16 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,435



Thank you Lancaster, that was hugely helpful! I've had to do three separate uploads, see below:

Page 1:

Page 2:

Page 3:

I've redacted the PPC name and details as I've seen other threads where the PPC's follow along to help their case, so I'm not taking any chances. Hopefully it's all worked correctly, if not, please let me know! blush.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
emsgeorge
post Tue, 6 Nov 2018 - 19:45
Post #28


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 442
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Member No.: 15,762



Looks like they are saying you are parked on the road and not in your space, which your lease doesn’t cover, and they say you have no right to ( well aafor rt from if you agree to pay their charges ....)

Were you parked in the space which is yours or not ?

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SaulGoodman
post Tue, 6 Nov 2018 - 19:51
Post #29


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31
Joined: 16 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,435



QUOTE (emsgeorge @ Tue, 6 Nov 2018 - 20:45) *
Looks like they are saying you are parked on the road and not in your space, which your lease doesn’t cover, and they say you have no right to ( well aafor rt from if you agree to pay their charges ....)

Were you parked in the space which is yours or not ?


No the vehicle was not in my own space, rather on the road just outside my home. The lease does give easement rights through the area however and talks about the right to quiet enjoyment of the premises. No mention in the lease of not parking on the road at all.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Eljayjay
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 12:10
Post #30


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 870
Joined: 1 Apr 2017
Member No.: 91,235



I suspect that you have not found everything relating to parking in your lease.

There will almost certainly be a covenant under which you cannot park anywhere other than in a parking space.

If there is, the good news paradoxically is that, although you may be in breach of your lease, the remedy for that would be for another party to the lease to seek damages for the breach and/or an injunction ordering you not to repeat the breach. It would not be a parking charge from a stranger to the lease (such as, of course, the parking operator).

When it comes to a leasehold property, the document of paramount importance is the lease. Leases seldom give any right to third parties (like parking operators) to enforce their terms. The legal principle of privity of contract applies except in the very limited circumstances described in the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999.

It would be a good idea to upload your lease (after redacting any personal data) to a document-hosting website and post a link to it here so that we can see what it says on this and other matters.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SaulGoodman
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 14:18
Post #31


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31
Joined: 16 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,435



Thanks Eljayjay. I have spent a lot of time studying my lease for any terms that prohibit parking, and there is not one mention of any restrictions to parking. There is certainly no restrictive covenants to that affect, which is one of my arguments in relation to the claim. I have lived in the property for over 10 years, and the PPC only arrived on the scene a few years ago, and prior to that everyone parked where they liked with no issues. I can upload the lease if required though.

Can anyone advise of next steps in response to the PPC’s reply? I’m currently going on the basis that they haven’t actually said if they accept or deny the claim, and haven’t provided the documentation I asked for. Any thoughts?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 14:23
Post #32


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,385
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



It would help to see the lease. You might not have spotted everything.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SaulGoodman
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 14:39
Post #33


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31
Joined: 16 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,435



QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 15:23) *
It would help to see the lease. You might not have spotted everything.


Okay I’ll get that sorted tonight and post a link.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Churchmouse
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 15:38
Post #34


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,992
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
From: Landan
Member No.: 20,731



Is the PPC saying (fifth paragraph) that the road where the parking occurred was not owned by the OP's landlord, but by an undisclosed third party, which has engaged the PPC? It would be good to clarify that, as most of the LBC relates to the OP's lease and his relationship with the landowner--none of which is relevant to incidents of parking which allegedly took place on private land owned by a third party.

--Churchmouse
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SaulGoodman
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 18:35
Post #35


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31
Joined: 16 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,435



QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 16:38) *
Is the PPC saying (fifth paragraph) that the road where the parking occurred was not owned by the OP's landlord, but by an undisclosed third party, which has engaged the PPC? It would be good to clarify that, as most of the LBC relates to the OP's lease and his relationship with the landowner--none of which is relevant to incidents of parking which allegedly took place on private land owned by a third party.

--Churchmouse


That seems to be the case, however they won’t confirm this despite me asking. I’ve asked the landlord if they can confirm who owns the road, and I’m thinking I should speak to the local council too to see if I can find out. Not sure how to do that however.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Eljayjay
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 18:45
Post #36


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 870
Joined: 1 Apr 2017
Member No.: 91,235



The lease usually shows a plan of the development including the common parts which, hopefully, will include the roadway.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SaulGoodman
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 20:00
Post #37


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31
Joined: 16 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,435



QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 19:45) *
The lease usually shows a plan of the development including the common parts which, hopefully, will include the roadway.


Unfortunately it doesn’t, it only highlights the property and the parking space. I don’t think anyone knows who owns the road (if anyone?)

I’m now beginning to think this is potentially less about the lease and more to do with authority to operate in that the PPC have confirmed they and the landlord don’t own the land, and as such it becomes a trespass case which they have no standing as per PCM UK v Bull amongst others. Does this alter my DPA claim?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Churchmouse
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 23:10
Post #38


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,992
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
From: Landan
Member No.: 20,731



QUOTE (SaulGoodman @ Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 20:00) *
QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 19:45) *
The lease usually shows a plan of the development including the common parts which, hopefully, will include the roadway.


Unfortunately it doesn’t, it only highlights the property and the parking space. I don’t think anyone knows who owns the road (if anyone?)

I’m now beginning to think this is potentially less about the lease and more to do with authority to operate in that the PPC have confirmed they and the landlord don’t own the land, and as such it becomes a trespass case which they have no standing as per PCM UK v Bull amongst others. Does this alter my DPA claim?

Yes, if accurate, it makes most of your LBC rather wide of the mark. Due diligence...

If the PPC's right to operate on the roadway depends on their contract with the owner of the roadway, then their case against you cannot proceed without their providing evidence of the alleged authority granted to them. The PPC may not want to disclose this information until they go to court, but if you sue them, it will no longer be up to them (unless they're prepared to default).

You can at least confirm that the roadway has or has not been adopted by the local authority, and you should do so. (It wouldn't be the first time a PPC has tried to operate on public land, either...)

A PPC cannot enforce a trespass claim unless it has obtained an interest in the land; mere authority to operate on the land may be sufficient for issuing parking contracts, but would not entitle it to sue anyone for trespass. So perhaps there is no mystery third party at all? Has the PPC specifically stated that it was not the landholder/occupier? Their acquisition of such an interest may not have been required to be registered with the Land Registry, making it difficult to check.

As for the DPA claim, there is a wide exception for processing personal data "necessary for the establishment, exercise or defence of legal claims", so the threshold question is whether there were legitimate grounds supporting such legal proceedings. One example where there wouldn't be any would be if the PPC had been operating on a public highway.

--Churchmouse
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SaulGoodman
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 00:11
Post #39


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31
Joined: 16 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,435



QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 00:10) *
QUOTE (SaulGoodman @ Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 20:00) *
QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 19:45) *
The lease usually shows a plan of the development including the common parts which, hopefully, will include the roadway.


Unfortunately it doesn’t, it only highlights the property and the parking space. I don’t think anyone knows who owns the road (if anyone?)

I’m now beginning to think this is potentially less about the lease and more to do with authority to operate in that the PPC have confirmed they and the landlord don’t own the land, and as such it becomes a trespass case which they have no standing as per PCM UK v Bull amongst others. Does this alter my DPA claim?

Yes, if accurate, it makes most of your LBC rather wide of the mark. Due diligence...

If the PPC's right to operate on the roadway depends on their contract with the owner of the roadway, then their case against you cannot proceed without their providing evidence of the alleged authority granted to them. The PPC may not want to disclose this information until they go to court, but if you sue them, it will no longer be up to them (unless they're prepared to default).

You can at least confirm that the roadway has or has not been adopted by the local authority, and you should do so. (It wouldn't be the first time a PPC has tried to operate on public land, either...)

A PPC cannot enforce a trespass claim unless it has obtained an interest in the land; mere authority to operate on the land may be sufficient for issuing parking contracts, but would not entitle it to sue anyone for trespass. So perhaps there is no mystery third party at all? Has the PPC specifically stated that it was not the landholder/occupier? Their acquisition of such an interest may not have been required to be registered with the Land Registry, making it difficult to check.

As for the DPA claim, there is a wide exception for processing personal data "necessary for the establishment, exercise or defence of legal claims", so the threshold question is whether there were legitimate grounds supporting such legal proceedings. One example where there wouldn't be any would be if the PPC had been operating on a public highway.

--Churchmouse


Thanks Churchmouse. Can you advise how I could find out if the LA has taken ownership of the road, is this an FOI request perhaps? I’ve pulled the title deed and register from the Land Registry, which seem to indicate that the original builders who built the plot own the whole estate, and my landlord have taken legal ownership of the various flats and parking spaces, but the actual road is still unclear.

The PPC haven’t said they aren’t the landholder/occupier, only that me and my landlord are not and they won’t divulge who is until court proceedings are issued.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 08:18
Post #40


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8,637
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



The LA will have a list of the status of roads in their area. Often published on a web page. A FOI request may take too long to come back.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Tuesday, 13th November 2018 - 03:39
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.