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Britannia Parking NTK - Worth Appealing?
Jetl3on
post Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 13:29
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The driver Parked in this pub car park, turns out BritPark took over few months ago with ANPR. Only thing the driver can spot, it was dark, signs are not illuminated. There is a P sign right hand side of entrance. The camera used to take these photos enhances the image, its much darker than that to the naked eye.

Top of letter states: PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - NOTICE TO KEEPER.

Any suggestions appreciated.

Jet









This post has been edited by Jetl3on: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 19:56
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post Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 13:29
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ostell
post Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 15:07
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The notice does not comply with the requirements of POFA to be able to hold the keeper liable. Here's POFA. Check paragraph 9 and see what is not on their notice:

And take the photos without flash

And edit that post so that the identity of the driver cannot be inferred. Use "the driver......" etc

This post has been edited by ostell: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 15:12
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cabbyman
post Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 17:09
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EDIT your post to avoid identifying the driver. Refer only to 'the driver.' This is CRUCIAL.


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Jetl3on
post Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 20:35
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Thanks for the response and post updated.
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Jetl3on
post Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 21:24
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These conditions are not seemingly met, are they sufficient for defence and is there a template to appeal?

Thanks

9(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.
(2)The notice must—

©describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable;

(d)specify the total amount of those parking charges that are unpaid, as at a time which is—;

(e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—
(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or

(g)inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment


This post has been edited by Jetl3on: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 09:14
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Jetl3on
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 09:36
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Ostell, Cabbyman,

What do you think, as having read POFA several times, the points mentioned above do not appear to be valid justification to appeal?

Appreciate any assistance.

This post has been edited by Jetl3on: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 09:52
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 10:14
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YOu could just tell them their notice fails to meet the strict requirements of POFA, so they must either cancel the charge or contact the driver themselves.
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cabbyman
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 10:32
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You could use your extract in post #5.

Require them to either cancel or provide a POPLA code where you will arrange for them to be instructed to cancel.

They will refuse your appeal, but a good, solid POPLA appeal should see them off.


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Jetl3on
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 10:51
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For clarity, does the PCN actually breach POFA guidelines, and if so can someone point our which section please? Or is it a case of, PCN is compliant, but appeal nevertheless, they might cancel?

Just to be clear which category this falls into.

Cheers

2 days to respond..... sad.gif
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cabbyman
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 10:59
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You said yourself that it didn't comply with PoFA 2012 sched 4 para 9!!!!

There will be many other failures as well.

For your POPLA appeal, you need to go through PoFA with a fine tooth comb.

2 days to respond???? Where did you get that from? You have 28 days to appeal.


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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 11:09
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Seriously, we're not gong to do your work for you
You said it wasnt compliant - did you make that up?
Keep going through it.
If you want to be specific, use "including, but not limited to, the following..." so you can easily add if you want and they cant whine and moan.
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Jetl3on
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 12:02
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More than happy to do the legwork, just asking for a second opinion. Reading the legal jargon I am not convinced the points quoted are valid.

This post has been edited by Jetl3on: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 12:03
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cabbyman
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 12:07
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It's easier if you draft your initial appeal and post it here for critique.

Two reasons:

a) It's in your words.

b) You get to understand what is being written.

As I stated above, and your research on other threads would have confirmed, they will automatically refuse your first appeal so it's content is not crucial. However, if you have a strong point, which you have, include it. It may convince them that you bite!


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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 12:55
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There really isnt much in the way of jargon
Is there a parking period? If No, then it isnt compliant. Time in front of cameras is NOT the time tthe vehicle was parked, from and to.
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Jetl3on
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 12:49
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 13:55) *
There really isnt much in the way of jargon
Is there a parking period? If No, then it isnt compliant. Time in front of cameras is NOT the time tthe vehicle was parked, from and to.


Got thrown by the term 'parking charge', initially took to mean the NTK must contain what it costs to park at alleged location, then thought it must be the £60 cost written on the NTK. But from your response, it is clearly the former......Didn't pickup on 'parking period' being relevant until you mentioned it.

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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 13:28
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Yes there are two parking charges potentially - the PCN and any charge to actually park "normally" in a pay and display, for example.

So for example, IF there is a pay per hour cost, then they have to state how much of this charge was left unpaid.
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mummyJ
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 00:11
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Nosferatu

Just jumping in as this thread is relevant to my own PCN. You say Jet3lon has a PCN that is not POFA compliant as it alleges 'failed to make valid payment' but no mention of 'parking period' and photos showing arrival and exit of car are not the same as being parked. My PCN says Contravention :parked longer than the maximum time permitted .Again photos of entry and exit . So does one argue to POPLA that entry and exit times are not parking times?
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 07:51
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DONT jump into other peoples threads. It clutters THEIR discussion space with YOUR query, which odesnt help them at all. Dont do it again!

You can indeed make that argument. POPLA may disagre and consider it to be prking, or close enough, but you point out
- nothing allows them to interpret POFA2012 anytinhg other than strictly. there is no "substantively compliant" arugment that can be allowed by POPLA, as they have no authority to decide this, unlike a properly formed Tribunal.
- parking period is clealry not the same as time passing a camera. This is acknowledged by POPLA and the BPA, by the existence of the grace period at the end of parking which is to allow the visitor to leave. As this cannot then be parking, POPLA is not permitted to consder it as such for the purpose of POFA. It was also confirmed in the courts that waiting to leave a car park is not parking.
- therefore thre cannot be comploiance with POFA, and therefore the Keeper cannot be liable

That this makes ANPR based regimes untenable for Keeper liability is not the concern of the motorist but the Operators business. It is also the Will of Parliament that ANPR is not to be used by local authorities for parking matters, and given POFA was drafted and introduced *after* councils were barred from using ANPR, you suggest this is their Will here. POPLA is not permitted to go against Parliament.

This post has been edited by nosferatu1001: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 07:54
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Jetl3on
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 08:56
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I think I have done my research correctly and covered all areas and would appreciate any feedback before I hit the send button.

Many Thanks

Jetleon



Dear Sir/ Madam,

Reference:
Date of issue: 21 Sept 2018
Vehicle registration:

I am writing to formally challenge the above Parking Charge Notice. My vehicle was issued with a Parking Charge Notice for the reason of FAILING TO MAKE A VALID PAYMENT

In accordance with the Road Traffic Act 1991 and POFA regulation, my challenge is on the basis that the contravention did not occur for the following reasons:
1. The British Parking Association make the following statement (20.5) The photographs must refer to and confirm the incident which you claim was unauthorised, a date and time stamp should be included on the photograph.
• As you can see from the PCN received, no date or time stamp was included on the photograph.

2. POFA 9.2(1) A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met. (2)The notice must specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates.
• The PCN is not compliant as it details the entry and exit times, but not the period of parking

3. POFA 9.(2)(a) ……specify the relevant land on which it was parked.
• There are no visible signs on entry specifying the relevant land where the alleged contravention occurred.
• Photographic evidence provided

4. POFA 9.(2)© Describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable;
• The PCN is not compliant as it does not describe the charges due at the end of the period

5. The British Parking Association make the following statement:
21.1 You may use ANPR camera technology to manage, control and enforce parking in private car parks, as long as you do this in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner. Your signs at the car park must tell drivers that you are using this technology and what you will use the data captured by ANPR cameras for.
• Having visited the site mentioned, it does not state on entry that you are using ANPR, nor does it state what you will use the data for. Photographic evidence provided.

For this reason I look forward to receiving notification within 28 days that the Parking Charge Notice has been cancelled.













This post has been edited by Jetl3on: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 09:00
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 09:15
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"3. POFA 9.(2)(a) ……specify the relevant land on which it was parked.
• There are no visible signs on entry specifying the relevant land where the alleged contravention occurred.
• Photographic evidence provided"

What on earth does that have to do with POFA? Nothing.
The NTK must specificy the relevant land
Not the signage.


Why on earth have you mentioned the RTA, then actually said nothing further baout it? Waffle.
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