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Parking Eye ANPR based PCN, Payment made but no receipt
Rincewind
post Tue, 3 Jul 2018 - 13:56
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Hi All

I think there is a problem

A car is in the garage for repair so the owner gets a courtesy car

21/6 Courtesy car is parked in a Parking Eye controlled car park. The ticket machine is down several flights of stairs. so finally arrving at the ticketing machine, cash was paid and a ticket obtained which was then displayed in the car

24/6 courtesy car was returned to the garage

3/7 Driver received a message from garage that the courtesy car had picked up a parking ticket (PCN) issued on 29/6
Of course at this stage, the courtesy car has been cleaned out and returned to the garage so any paper receipt had long since have disappeared

Seems likely that the driver had typed in the Reg of his usual car (unlikely to have remembered the Reg of the courtesy car) or perhaps simply mistyped the actual Reg No In either case, Parking Eye will have an unreconciled payment (one not associated with an ANPR registration).

This must be relatively common if only through simple mis-typing so there should be a process. For example, in a sensible world, the driver should be able to speak to Parking Eye, explain the situation, have them check for unreconciled payments and/or payments associated with the other Reg Number and got the matter cleared up.

But of course, contacting Parking eye is nigh on impossible (except by letter) and certainly not within the 14 day 40% off period.

Disappointing that the BPA code of conduct does not require operators to respond to customer queries with any degree of rapidity.

so, do you experts agree - pay up and chalk it down to experience? Or is there something the driver can do?

TFAI

This post has been edited by Rincewind: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 - 16:33
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post Tue, 3 Jul 2018 - 13:56
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ostell
post Tue, 3 Jul 2018 - 14:15
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OK rewrite your first post so that the identity of the driver cannot be inferred.

P E are not interested in what happened, they want their money. They should not have accepted a payment for a car that was not in the car park but that would lose them money. They insist that one of the considions is to put in the correct number, and you failed to do that.


Next talk to your garage and get them to respond to P E and name you as the keeper of the car at the time. They must include copies of any hiring paperwork that you signed. POFA 13 (2) Next sit back and wait for your very own Notice to Keeper/Hirer from PE. This must arrive within 21 days of P E getting the response from the garage. The notice to keeper/hirer must also be accompanied by copies of the hiring documents and the original PCN. P E has never been able to send these additional documents with the Notice to Hirer/keeper and so fail to comply with the requirements to be able to hold the keeper liable. You send the appeal in so that it arrives just before the 21 days to respond are up so that they cannot resend a corrected NTK within the 21 days. No liability for you, the keeper, and no liability for the registered keeper, the garage.

The garage is subject to paragraph 13 of POFA, the additional documents requirement should be in the NTK and you are subject to paragraph 14, especially 14 (2) (a). Never seen the parking companies get this process correct.

This all depends on the identity of the driver not being known so get editing your first post. Use "the driver ....." etc. avoid I, me we etc.

This post has been edited by ostell: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 - 14:19
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Rincewind
post Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 14:29
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Well it seems the garage that loaned me the car has taken it upon themselves to appeal. I am not clear what grounds as they 'filled in a form on the web' - silly idea as there is no record of what they said.

Nice of them.

They did this on 5th July.

So I guess I wait until that process has failed and the garage nominates me as the keeper - - or is it then too late for the garage to nominate the keeper?
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ostell
post Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 15:54
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They can nominate you as the keeper/hirer at any time. Perhaps next time you're in the garage explain POFA to them so that no one pays the next time.
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Rincewind
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 11:17
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So there has been progress

The Hirer has received a Parking Charge Notice Reminder (
Attached Image
)
Date of event 21/6
Date notice issued 29/8
Date on Notice 7/9
Date notice received 10/9
and has been given until 12/9 (yes 48 hours) to pay a reduced rate.

Interesting discrepancy between Date on Notice and Date issued!

Notice had an incorrect address on it (2 houses away from the correct address) and it seems likely that the occupants of that house redelivered it.

The hirer says that a parking fee was paid but that the registration number of a different car was entered by mistake (forgetting that a hire car was being used). Of course, by the time the notice appeared, the receipt had been thrown away

What should the Hirer do now?
does he really only have 48 hours to pay the reduced fee
Can he reasonably get Car Park operator to verify that a fee was paid for a particular Registration number?

This post has been edited by Rincewind: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 05:33
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ostell
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 13:27
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Do you mean what can the keeper/hirer do? Edit please. They do not know the driver, unless someone told them. Is this addressed to the garage and been forwarded to the hirer? They are the the owners. Please explain your redaction.

That reminder letter would have been deemed received 82 days after the event and is the first indication of the event. A response to PE from the Hirer/keeper stating that this is the first letter received from them and it is now too late for liability to be transferred to the keeper from the driver under POFA. They have also failed to supply the documents required by POFA 14 (2) (a) which again is failure and therefore can be no keeper liability.
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kommando
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 14:38
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This is easily winnable, but a loss is guaranteed if you persist in identifying the driver.

Only the keeper can be given a NTK !!!!!
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ostell
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 17:30
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And can we see the back of that letter please
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Rincewind
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 06:13
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Sorry, careless. Edited to refer to Hirer.

Garage received original PCN, told the hirer and appealed (on 5/7)
Somewhere in that process the Garage told PE the name and address of the Hirer
Hirer has no knowledge of events until the Reminder notice arrived

Timescales:
Event was 21/06
Note issued 29/08 - 69 days later
Notice received - 7/9 78 days later
POFA refers to a 'relevant period' (14.2.a) but I am unclear what that is and therefore unclear of the grounds for saying "it is now too late for liability to be transferred to the keeper from the driver under POFA" Can you please clarify?

However, hirer has certainly have not been given copies (POFA 13.2) of hire agreement, Garage statement naming the hirer or statement of liability signed buy hirer.

Should Hirer use this as grounds for appeal or the timing or both?




Back of the letter is attached
Attached Image


This post has been edited by Rincewind: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 20:14
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ostell
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 07:27
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You have a golden ticket, they know they have missed out and the have not got the required POFA statements on the notice. (you need to do some redacting on the reverse of the document). Here's a letter for them:

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the hirer/keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me, the hirer keeper..

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.



They have to send a PCN to the hirer so that it is received within 21 days of receiving the response from the leasing company so you send that letter so that it arrives on about day 19 after the date of the PCN so that they will not have time to reissue a corrected PCN within the required time.

Perhaps you will be so kind as to pass this on to your garage so that they are aware of this. They actually did the correct thing by giving your name as the hirer. That absolves them from any liability.

PE may reject the appeal and give you a POPLA code but a POPLA appeal with all the POFA defects will be in your favour. Here's POFA for you to check out your PCN Paragraph 14 is the one that is relevant.
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Rincewind
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 20:18
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Awesome and thank you

Garage will be informed - they are the good guys in all of this

You say 'the letter should arrive . . . days after the PCN'

Is that (see PCN for details)
the Date Issued (29/08) or
the Date 07/09/2018
or some other date?

Thanks again
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ostell
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 21:53
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from 7/9
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Rincewind
post Wed, 26 Sep 2018 - 22:10
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So I sent off the appeal yesterday 2nd class signed for.
Should I also fill in the appeal on their website - belt and braces - saying the same thing?
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ostell
post Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 06:23
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So if they don't sign then you have prroof that is wasn't delivered !!!

Reading all the other threads you should have seen mention of send first class with free certificate of posting from a post office.

Fill in the appeal on their website but only as the keeper. Watch out for the defaults. And take a screen shot of the completed form before you send.
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Rincewind
post Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 08:32
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If it wasn't delivered than I presume I have not lodged an appeal - hence the original question about lodging hte appeal on line as a 'Plan B'?

Certificate of Posting: Yes - but 'signed for' also provides a chitty to say a letter was posted

Why as 'keeper'? It was a loan/hire car from my garage. I am nominated and been sent the PCN as Hirer (Parking Eye's option is Hirer/Lessee) so presumably this is correct option?

I shall be attaching nothing (as I have nothing to attach!) but I am also required to say there is no other significant evidence which makes me nervous!!

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ostell
post Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 08:38
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While you had control of the car you were the keeper. But the main thing is not as driver. If there is a "hirer" option then use that.

If there is a quible the signed for proof could be asked for. No proof = not delivered. Cert of Post and first class assumed delivered 2 days later
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 08:47
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The point of getting Proof of Posting is that, under the interpretations act, it is deemed delivered 2 working days late IF you sent first class
Not one single person has ever been told to use SECOND class signed for.
Hell, if you CAN appeal online, noone is told to send post at all!
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Rincewind
post Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 15:43
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 09:47) *
The point of getting Proof of Posting is that, under the interpretations act, it is deemed delivered 2 working days late IF you sent first class


Never knew that. Now I understand the significance.
You live and learn. THanks
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Jlc
post Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 16:02
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QUOTE (Rincewind @ Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 16:43) *
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 09:47) *
The point of getting Proof of Posting is that, under the interpretations act, it is deemed delivered 2 working days late IF you sent first class


Never knew that. Now I understand the significance.
You live and learn. THanks

But doesn't that only apply to documents where an Act requires service by post? (Interpretation Act s7)

It's still sensible advice mind...

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 16:05


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Rincewind
post Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 07:20
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Well I had almost forgotten about this .

A letter from Parking Eye dated 1 October arrived on Friday 2 November in an unpostmarked envelop (but aren't they all these days?) telling me my appeal had been rejected on the basis that I "had not provided sufficient evidence to show I did not break the terms and conditions on the signage"

Sounds like a standard letter that gets produced in response to any appeal. So now go through the POPLA appeals process in which, presumably, I simply reiterate my appeal to Parking Eye.

Is it sufficient to say

I was loaned a car by my garage.

On 7 september 2018 I received a notice from Parking eye of a charge incurred because they allege that the car was parked in a car park in Rickmansworth on 21 June.

I appealed this charge on 27 September on the basis that

Ref PCN 043314/825178

Although I was the hirer/keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me, the hirer keeper..

On 30 October I received a rejection of this appeal from Parking Eye dated 1 October

I am therefore appealing to POPLA on the basis that, as previously advised to Parking Eye, their notice to the hirer/keeper notice contained none of the additional documents required by section 14 92) (a) of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012


Does the fact that the notification of rejection of appeal did not arrive for over 30 days have any bearing?

Thanks for any advice

PS I tried to start an appeal on POPLA but it says the 10 digit POPLA number is invalid. Presumably 'out of time' due to the excessive delay in receiving the appeal rejection. Now what?

This post has been edited by Rincewind: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 - 07:03
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