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Police trial new Home Office mobile fingerprint technology
bill w
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 11:53
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I wonder what would happen if one declines to be fingerprinted in the street without first seeking legal advice.

I came across this via a Liberty posting, who seem to be getting a little hot under the collar about it.

It doesn't seem to have been widely publicised, so I can imagine it taking most people by surprise; I wonder if there was actually any parliamentary debate about it.

Police trial new Home Office mobile fingerprint technology.

New mobile fingerprinting technology will allow frontline officers across the country to use their smartphones to identify people in less than a minute – saving police time and reducing costs.


The Liberty post I mentioned above

I hope this is the right bit of the forum, please move if I've misjudged.

This post has been edited by bill w: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 11:55
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post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 11:53
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Fredd
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 11:30
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 10:43) *
QUOTE (stevensan @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 07:52) *
A number of brits married to Europeans are about to get a real shock.

And you say this based on what?

Excessive time spent reading (and believing) all the re-branded Project Fear shock! horror! doom! stuff in the Guardian/Independent/Evening Standard, I imagine.


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DancingDad
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 12:08
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QUOTE (stevensan @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 07:52) *
.........If you don't think being forced (a squaddie isnt forced) to live apart for six (a minimum of) six months, for no reason, then it is pointless arguing with you. I made it clear that in this case they DID qualify under the NORMAL way -
............


In your example, the Brit was not forced to take a job in the UK any more then a squaddie is forced to go where the army sends them.
Both have the option of not taking the job or resigning.

In other examples, plenty of cases where grndparents cannot see grandkids, after divorce of the parents for instance, even when parents and grandparents have fallen out.
This is I assume the fault of the Home Office as well?
Or is the Home Office stance on Grandparents visiting due to a history of Grandparents from some cultures coming for a visit and not going home ?

I am sorry I do not have the bleeding heart that cries at every perceived injustice.
To me it is simple, if people have a right to live here, fine.
If they cannot or will not match the rules, sod em.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 12:08
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stevensan
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 12:25
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 10:43) *
QUOTE (stevensan @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 07:52) *
If you don't think being forced (a squaddie isnt forced) to live apart for six (a minimum of) six months, for no reason, then it is pointless arguing with you. I made it clear that in this case they DID qualify under the NORMAL way - the Home Office just decided otherwise, and that, is that - they become "undocumented". There is further examples - grand parents unable to even visit their grand children as the Home Office assumes they will not leave - adult dependent rules which make it impossible for a dependent adult to settle in the UK, regardless of circumstances. British kids unable to live in their own country as their British parent can't earn enough (a figure above the "living wage"), business owners declared "illegal" because they were following rules, which were subsequently changed after they had already followed rules which were current at the time they followed them. Lawyers and judges both declaring even they don't understand the rules.

i assume you also agree with indefinite detention on these "undocumented"? Those that have not committed a crime, but the Home Office have declared undocumented.

I disagree with the motorway traffic (speed limits) regulations 1974, doesn't mean I can ignore them. If you don't like the immigration rules, by all means start a campaign to have the law changed. But until that happens, the immigration rules apply to everyone, including the people who think the current rules are stupid / unjust / unfair.

QUOTE (stevensan @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 07:52) *
A number of brits married to Europeans are about to get a real shock.

And you say this based on what?


See - this is my point. If you break the motorway traffic regulations 1974 you go to court, plead your case, and if your found to have broken them you get punished. The Home Office don't work like that. Once they have decided you are "guilty" your an "undocumented migrant" and subject to their hostile environment controls. You have to go to court to prove your innocence.

UK law says your innocent till proven guilty. Home Office policy is your guilty until you can prove your innocent.

UK has been quite clear they want Europeans to be under UK immigration policy.
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DancingDad
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 12:56
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QUOTE (stevensan @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 12:25) *
....... Home Office policy is your guilty until you can prove your innocent. ......


No
The Home Office is applying rules that simply say you have a right to live in the UK or not.
Many people have a right to live here and are, if you want, innocent.
Then there are people who have no automatic right but still want to live here.
They must satisfy the rules to establish their right.
The rules may be clunky, awkward, even impossible to comply with in some cases, tough.
That does not equate to guilty, simply that they failed the exam.
My house, my rules, simple.
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Fredd
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 12:57
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QUOTE (stevensan @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 12:25) *
UK has been quite clear they want Europeans to be under UK immigration policy.

Gosh, there's a major surprise - an independent country wants foreigners to be subject to its immigration rules. Rather like the remaining EU countries making foreigners subject to EU immigration rules, really. Both sides have made it perfectly clear that they want the eventual deal to protect the rights of current residents, so why try to make a scare story out of it?


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stevensan
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:30
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 12:56) *
QUOTE (stevensan @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 12:25) *
....... Home Office policy is your guilty until you can prove your innocent. ......


That does not equate to guilty, simply that they failed the exam.
My house, my rules, simple.


By your logic, if you park in a parkingeye car park, and abide by their rules, but they decide you didn't then tough, you have to pay. Their house, their rules. Simple. If you disagree you can pay thousands to take the matter to a judicial review, where the otherside can (and will) throw unlimited legal resources at it. But you still have to pay up.

You can comply with all the ludicrous HO rules and yet they can decide you don't and immediately make you "undocumented".

There is many, confirmed by the replies on this thread, who have rose tinted views of how immigration is handled. You cant talk about "protecting the rights" of current residents and then say they will be subject to the current immigration rules, as subjecting them to new "rules" is a removal of their current rights. And if they are subjected to new rules, those will be the UK rules, which are the same as the current rules for Non EU citizens - the famed Hostile Environment.

Like I said - many unsuspecting British families are going to get a real shock.
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Fredd
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:41
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QUOTE (stevensan @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:30) *
You cant talk about "protecting the rights" of current residents and then say they will be subject to the current immigration rules, as subjecting them to new "rules" is a removal of their current rights.

Who says they will be subject to the "new" rules, rather than the arrangements that everybody agrees will be put in place to protect their current rights?

QUOTE (stevensan @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:30) *
Like I said - many unsuspecting British families are going to get a real shock.

I agree - the shock being that your doom and gloom scenario won't happen.


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DancingDad
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 18:07
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QUOTE (stevensan @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:30) *
.....By your logic, if you park in a parkingeye car park, and abide by their rules, but they decide you didn't then tough, you have to pay. Their house, their rules. Simple. If you disagree you can pay thousands to take the matter to a judicial review, where the otherside can (and will) throw unlimited legal resources at it. But you still have to pay up.

.........


Personally I try to vote with my feet and not park in car parks that are governed by the more avaricious PPCs.
I see no reason why others cannot.
And if we push the analogy, UK PPC does not ask anyone to come here, that is their choice.
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southpaw82
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 18:16
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 18:07) *
QUOTE (stevensan @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:30) *
.....By your logic, if you park in a parkingeye car park, and abide by their rules, but they decide you didn't then tough, you have to pay. Their house, their rules. Simple. If you disagree you can pay thousands to take the matter to a judicial review, where the otherside can (and will) throw unlimited legal resources at it. But you still have to pay up.

.........


Personally I try to vote with my feet and not park in car parks that are governed by the more avaricious PPCs.
I see no reason why others cannot.
And if we push the analogy, UK PPC does not ask anyone to come here, that is their choice.

Quite aside from the fact that a private company acting as such isn’t amenable to judicial review.


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cp8759
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 20:42
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QUOTE (stevensan @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:30) *
subjecting them to new "rules" is a removal of their current rights.

Do you have one single iota of evidence to support this extraordinary assertion?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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DancingDad
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 21:43
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 20:42) *
QUOTE (stevensan @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:30) *
subjecting them to new "rules" is a removal of their current rights.

Do you have one single iota of evidence to support this extraordinary assertion?


Evidence would spoil the narrative.

Though to be fair, I have seen a few cases in Daily Mail along lines of guy has lived here for twenty years or more, gone on holiday and not been let back in.
In DM so must be true.
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stevensan
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 11:59
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 20:42) *
QUOTE (stevensan @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:30) *
subjecting them to new "rules" is a removal of their current rights.

Do you have one single iota of evidence to support this extraordinary assertion?


Evidence?

EU citizens are not currently subjected to UK immigration law.

Brexit is all about "taking back control". Which means removing EU citizens rights.

https://twitter.com/The3Million/status/964454509647941632


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southpaw82
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 12:14
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And subjecting them to the same controls as people from outside the EU (possibly). Nobody knows what will happen to EU citizens currently resident in the UK though I’d be awfully surprised if they were summarily removed. As a matter of semantics EU citizens’ rights aren’t being removed. They will retain the right to live anywhere in the EU. However, the UK won’t be in the EU so they won’t get the right from there (but might get it from a separate treaty - who knows?)


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DancingDad
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 12:15
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QUOTE (stevensan @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 11:59) *
.......Brexit is all about "taking back control". Which means removing EU citizens rights........

Fairly certain that their EU rights will not be affected by Brexit.
Their UK rights may be but they will still be EU citizens with all their rights as EU citizens intact.
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