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PCN Croydon Wellesley Road Bus Lane
RobAbb
post Fri, 12 Apr 2019 - 02:55
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Hi all,

I received the attached PCN from Croydon Council for driving in a bus lane. This is essentially the same as this question from 6 momths ago: PCN driving in bus lane in Croydon

I fully intend to challenge this as the bus lane and entrace to the car park don't seem to be correctly signed and, moreover, this level of enforcement does not feel to make any sense; i.e. it is effectively impossible to turn into the car park safely without crossing into the bus lane. Here is the Google maps streetview of the carpark entrance: StreetView. I've spoken with my wife, who was driving when this took place, and she was as surprised as me about getting a ticket in this situation.

Can someone help me word the representations for challenging the PCN please? I was away when the letter came so there's only about a week of the 14 days left now I'm afraid.

The PCN and video are all here: PCN Folder

thanks,

Rob
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post Fri, 12 Apr 2019 - 02:55
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 12 Apr 2019 - 07:49
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Usually a 20m distance in a bus lane, for the purposes of turning left, is regarded as de minimis.

IMO the broad white line is too close to the car park entrance. Have a look at Diagram 9.1 on page 91 here:-

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...-chapter-03.pdf

The Council have obviously made provision for this entrance as though it were a junction and therefore the TSM suggests a 10m gap and not a broad white line which goes up to the entrance.

Nice little earner which targets the car park.

Mick
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RobAbb
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 20:35
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Thanks Mick, that's very helpful.

Based on the TSM and the previous post I mentioned I've written the below representations.

Are they suitable for this first stage, is there anything I should add or remove etc..?

thanks,

R

---------------------------------

I am writing to formally challenge Penalty Charge Notice XXXX.

On 3 April 2019 my vehicle was issued with a Penalty Charge Notice for the reason of Being in a Bus Lane when prohibited on 28 March 2019.

My challenge is on the following grounds:

1:- There was no contravention of a prescribed order

The government’s Traffic Signs Manual, Chapter 3 section 9.3.13 (available here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...chapter-03.pdf) states:

“It is important to ensure that the marking to diagram 1049A is terminated correctly, so that drivers turning left can move across to do so safely without needing to cross the continuous line.”

And the accompanying diagram, Figure 9-1, shows an approximate distance of 10m between the end of the bus lane and the left hand turn.

The bus lane on Wellesley Road in this circumstance terminates directly in line with the left hand turn and is therefore in contravention of the Government’s manual. Thus the contravention did not occur since the bus lane was incorrectly marked.

2:- The contravention, had it occurred:
would have been minimal,
would not have gained the driver any advantage and
would have happened only because the driver was attempting to maximise safety for all road users on a busy road when turning left into a car park.

It is fair to say that this is a junction on a busy road with often fast moving traffic. Making the left hand turn into a car park where speeds are immediately greatly reduced is difficult and safety is the paramount concern to any reasonable driver. No obstruction was caused to busses so policy should be followed and discretion not to enforce applied. To do otherwise would be an abuse of the council’s own policy.

For any one of these reasons I respectfully ask that the council find this representation acceptable and cancel the PCN.

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Incandescent
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 21:50
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Here's the entrance to B & Q on the Crewe Road, near me in Crewe. The correct way to do it !

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0907942,-...33;8i8192?hl=en
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RobAbb
post Sat, 21 Sep 2019 - 13:26
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I finally had the tribuneral adjudication for this. Unfortunately the council's view was upheld. I'm pretty astonished. THe adjudicator said, "well it's like driving on the pavement" so found against my wife for tuning safely into a car park. I will tweet this to croydon and westfield, who are planing to spend a few £bn on a new shopping center there. I'm sure shoppers will appreciate having and exta £130 parking bill attached to their shopping trip.
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 22 Sep 2019 - 07:30
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Posting the Decision just in case others can spot a reason for a Review of the case. Disappointed that the adjudicator dismisses the TSM out of hand (see my comments below the Decision):-

2190287585

At this scheduled personal hearing Mr Abbondati attended in person but the Enforcement Authority did not attend and were not represented.

A contravention can occur if a vehicle is in a bus lane during operational hours, other than as permitted or exempted.

There appears to be no dispute that the vehicle was in a bus lane at Wellesly Road, as shown in the closed circuit television (cctv) images produced by the Enforcement Authority.

Mr Abbondati’s case is that the vehicle, driven by his wife, was turning left into the adjoining car park and was only in the bus lane for a short distance.

I have had the opportunity of hearing the Appellant personally and find him to be a credible and convincing witness. I certainly accept what he tells me.

Mr Abbondati has also produced a number of pieces of evidence regarding signage, stopping distances and so forth, and has referred to parts of the Traffic Signs Manual, which I have considered. The Enforcement Authority should have regard to the advisory Traffic Signs Manual but the signs and lines must comply with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016. The evidence produced shows that they do.

Turning left is not in itself a valid exemption for being in a bus lane and the motorist must wait until the end of bus lane or a direction arrow or break in the continuous line. Where there is no break, typically adjoining an entrance to premises, a vehicle can only cross the bus lane and not travel in it.

An activated indicator light may well demonstrate an intention to turn but does provide an exemption from the prohibition.

I accept that this may not have been a deliberate attempt by the driver to contravene the bus lane regulations but that is not in itself a valid ground of appeal.

Considering all the evidence before me carefully I must find as a fact that, on this particular occasion, a contravention did occur and thus the Penalty Charge Notice was properly issued.


------------------------------
I believe this case centres on how the entrance to the Whitgift Public Car Park should be classed----is it a "major flow" turning? It is certainly not safe if a driver has to abruptly cross the broad white bus lane line as the adjudicator suggests. Secondly the following TSM extract includes plenty of "shoulds" which I believe indicate a mandatory requirement.


9.3.13. Where a nearside bus lane passes a junction with a major left‑turning flow into the side road, the line to diagram 1049A should be replaced with a broken line to diagram 1010 (see Figure 9-1). The broken line should commence 30 m in advance of the junction, and have the same width as the line to diagram 1049A. It should be accompanied by the arrow to diagram 1050 indicating a left turn (see Figure 9-6). At other junctions, the diagram 1049A marking should be terminated approximately 10 m before the junction (or at the junction if the minor road is one‑way towards the major road). In each case the bus lane recommences beyond the junction in combination with a marking to diagram 1010 (see Figure 9-1). It is important to ensure that the marking to diagram 1049A is terminated correctly, so that drivers turning left can move across to do so safely without needing to cross the continuous line.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 - 07:52
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cp8759
post Sun, 22 Sep 2019 - 12:06
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I completely agree with the adjudicator.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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