[NIP Wizard] mistake on adress, late NIP, wrong direction Options

[johnnieboy]

NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - May 2008
Date of the NIP: - 15 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 46 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A133 Clacton Road, nearjunction with Bromley Road, Elmstead Market (Travelling NORTH-WEST)
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Company Van
How many current points do you have? - 6
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I did not receive the original NIP which was apparently sent on the 23/5/08. On 23/06/08 I was sent a reminder with the original NIP. However the address on the reminder was 26, the avenue but I live at 96, the avenue. The envelope with the reminder and NIP was posted by hand with a hand written comment on the envelope "suggest you update your records. I'm assuming this was written by the occupier of 26 the avenue.
Also the location says trevelling NORTH WEST. I only use this route in the morning if town traffic is heavy and would have beed travelling to workSOUTH EAST ie. the opposite direction.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

• The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.
  
  You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 20:53:37 +0100

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[jobo]

think you need one off the clever one to confirm

but a hand delivered NIP is not legaly served

you may need a witness statement from the guy at 26 so go and make friends with them , say sorry for inconvience ect

its just a shame he took the trouble if they hadnt bothered you would never of got it,

and as the address was totaly wrong im not sure they could ever have established it was you at all

This post has been edited by jobo: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 - 12:56

[southpaw82]

Requirements as to the service of NIPs are to be found in s. 1A of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, viz:

(1A) A notice required by this section to be served on any person may be served on that person—
(a)by delivering it to him;
(b)by addressing it to him and leaving it at his last known address; or
(c )by sending it by registered post, recorded delivery service or first class post addressed to him at his last known address

I would say (but am prepared to be corrected) that 1A(a) allows delivery in person. 1A(b) allows it to be addressed and left. In your case though it was not left or sent in the post to your last known address (as you've nver been at that address and there's no reason for the police to think you have been - is there?). It is arguable that it has been delivered to you in accordance with 1A(a) but I'm not sure the interference of a third party can rectify a defect in service by accident. I think it's arguable that it has not been lawfully served upon you.

[Gaza]

The OP says it is a company van. The 14 day rule would only apply if he was the RK or it was delivered outside of 14 days to the RK. If he is not the RK I would guess that someone in his company put the incorrect address on the original NiP and the scammers have used this info. The fact he now has had it forwarded probably means it has been served. However, even if it wasn't and it was ignored, I would imagine at some point the scammers would begin making enquiries and find that the OP does not live at No 26 and the person at No 26 would say he put it through the correct door. The scammers would then go back to the RK and ask them to confirm the drivers details as no one by that name lives at No 26. In due course a new NiP would be issued.

The issue around NW/SE is different. Could vague locus be used?

[jobo]

hi gaz

theres acouple of issues with you missive



1 ) no one said anything about the 14 days

it still has to be legaly served, so the methord of delivery is relivent.

if he supplies 172 detail gets as fars as court then contest that the nip was legaly served he should get the case dismissed( might need a good solicitor)

trying to show that a 3rd party had successfuly delivered it on their behalf would be nigh on impossible, whats he going to say , he thinks he put it through the right door

if it hadnt been forwarded

the scammers dont make enquires they would just send a summons to the wrong address, its self not legaly served

they then find a person with a similar name but totaly different address guity of failing to supply info in his absence

if they do ever track him down he can have the judgement overturned as he never got an nip in the first place and therefore could not return it a fact borne out by the wrong address on it

the company have only commited an offence if they put the wrong address on purpose

[southpaw82]

if they do ever track him down he can have the judgement overturned as he never got an nip in the first place and therefore could not return it a fact borne out by the wrong address on it

Of course, he can't lie and say he didn't receive it if he did.

Section 172(9) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 deals with the service of a s. 172 requirement (I don't believe we're concerned with an NIP as none needs to be served on him as he's not the registered keeper).

For the purposes of section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 as it applies for the purposes of this section the proper address of any person in relation to the service on him of a notice under subsection (7) above is:
(a) ...
(b) in any other case, his last known address at the time of service.

Should the court determine that the address given by the company is his "last known address" then so long as it was sent by an authorised method it would be lawfully served. The safest course of action is, of course, to respond to the s. 172 notice within 28 days of receipt.

It's always helpful if people can try to make the distinction between the NIP and a s. 172 requirement - two different things that may well be on the same form.

[jobo]

wasnt sugesting a lie, just what would have happened if it hadnt been forwarded

it cant be his last know address if he never lived there

and

he cant reply to a 172 which was never recieved

other wise the scammers to send them ramdomly to any address in the country and then prosicute

[southpaw82]

it cant be his last know address if he never lived there

and

he cant reply to a 172 which was never recieved

other wise the scammers to send them ramdomly to any address in the country and then prosicute

I'm inclined to agree with you. However, the situation isn't exactly like that. The police have been provided with an address by the registered keeper. They're entitled to rely on this address. My concern is that a court will find that this was his last known address and thus provide for good service of the s. 172 notice. If the s. 172 notice has been lawfully served then he is under an obligation to reply to it (if he can).

[johnnieboy]

thanks very much for the fast replies. I'm a engineer by trade and find this legal stuff a bit hard to absorb. reading through the replies I'm still not sure what I should do. I spoke to my employer today and was told they supplied the wrong address. They said they would write to the police and explain this so they would know why I have not responded yet. Should I stop them?
Also any thoughts about the direction? Does NORTH WEST describe the position in the road of the camera or my driving direction?

[Gaza]

1 ) no one said anything about the 14 days

The OP did. Read the title of his post.

[The Rookie]

Sticking with the address first, most scammers use character recognition software on the form, so I suspect a 9 written a particular way could be interpreted as a 2 (ever tried brain training on the NDS's!), if the company did supply the correct address then the S172 notice hasn't been legally served....

HOWEVER I would suggest the OP respond naming themselves as late as possible within the permitted 28 days, a responce does not make an 'illegal' request a legal one, and the only way the OP can see if its legal is to get a copy of the form, and that will only happen if he pleads not guilty.

I'm not sure if the wrong direction will be classed as vague/wrong locus, personally I suspect not as the law does not require the NIP to state direction, just location, if the location is good (and especially as the OP is not mislead) I would argue that the wrong direction doesn't invalidate the NIP.

Simon

[johnnieboy]

If I write to them asking for clarification on the legallity of the reminder being hand delivered late and also the question of the direction, will they reply to this and if I get nowhere can I still admit the offence and get the standard 3 points? or does writing to them querying the charge automatically put me in the situation of getting 6 points if I'm found guitly

[The Rookie]

The issue is if the company gave the wrong address, then a court may find that it was delievered to your last known address and was legal...the scammers will tell you it was legally served regardless of whether it was or wasn't!

If you don't name the driver within 28 days of receipt of that S172 request you could be found guilty of 'failing to furnish' drivers details, 6pts.

If you name the driver within 28 days, and its believed (in court) you did not recieve the first S172 request(and you have good supporting evidence) then you can only be found guilty of speeding, the penalty for which depends on the speed and limit, but should not be affected by your 'late' responce.

Simon