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PCN for free parking - Britannia Parking, Southampton West Quay car park
daxilic
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 22:23
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Today a car was parked at West Quay car park in Southampton (driver unknown) for less than an hour for free - 60 minutes free parking after 6pm. A PCN was left on the windscreen which said "failed to display a ticket". So even though you can park for free you still need to get a ticket from the machine and display it. The parking sign said "18:00 - 20:00, UP TO 60 MINUTES FREE".

The exact car park location is here. So what is your advise to the driver?

This post has been edited by daxilic: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 17:10
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post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 22:23
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ostell
post Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 07:59
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The first thing to do, and URGENTLY, is to edit the post so that the identity of the driver cannot be inferred, Do that NOW. Take down those images and redact them so that the case cannot be identified. No VRM. no PCN number. You really haven't read other threads in this part of the forum before you posted, have you?

As with all windscreen tickets you appeal as the keeper so that the appeal arrives on day 26 of the 28 days allowed, and before they are permitted to access the DVLA. Give your name and address so that you can get a reply but make the details slightly different from that recorded on the V5 so you can see if the have contacted the DVLA or not. You can appeal that the signage is unclear and the parking is free after 18:00. The intention is to get them to respond without issuing a Notice to Keeper or issue a NTK without contacting the DVLA (saving themselves £2.50). Either way this is non compliant with POFA and therefore no transfer of liability to keeper.

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 08:12
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Redivi
post Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 09:02
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Yes

Delete everything in your original post and start again, including the admission that Britannia was right to issue the PCN

I'll delete the comment in italics when you've done it

Can't recall any previous threads concerning this car park but it could be within the area covered by the Southampton Harbour Byelaws

If so, Britannia can't recover payment from the registered keeper if it doesn't know who was driving

Tickets to cover initial free parking periods are standard
How else is the operative supposed to know when a vehicle arrived ?

This post has been edited by Redivi: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 09:03
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ostell
post Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 09:27
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Unfortunately it's the other side of the road to the byelaw area.

I hope the original poster edits soon. They could be looking defeat in face instead of success.
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kommando
post Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 10:32
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I know it would still be ignored but its time we had a sticky first post warning posters for to identify the driver unless a recognised poster recommends it.
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daxilic
post Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 21:45
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Apologies for not reading the rules before posting - this is the third time I've posted on this forum and on those occasions I was shouted at for not providing all information. I've edited the post and removed the images.

Why do I need to wait until the 26th day to appeal, can I not appeal now? When you say change the details you mean deliberately create typos in the address?

I'm a bit confused on this; so they need to prove I'm the keeper of the vehicle, but giving them the wrong address will stop that?
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ostell
post Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 22:07
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The reasons were explained in the past paragraph of Post #2 If you do it too early they may just manage to get a corrected NTK to you before the 56 days are up. Too late and they will apply to DVLA for your details. They don't need to prove you're the keeper, they can get you details from the DVLA but the intention is to persuade them not to. I didnm't say a wrong address i said slightly different from that recorded on the V5 so you can tell if they have got your details from the DVLA or not. A valid address is needed so that they can write back !!
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Dave65
post Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 22:08
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Not the wrong address only a slight change such as Beach Road instead of Beech Road etc
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Churchmouse
post Sat, 7 Jul 2018 - 00:53
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QUOTE (daxilic @ Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 23:23) *
Today a car was parked at West Quay car park in Southampton (driver unknown) for less than an hour for free - 60 minutes free parking after 6pm. A PCN was left on the windscreen which said "failed to display a ticket". So even though you can park for free you still need to get a ticket from the machine and display it. The parking sign said "18:00 - 20:00, UP TO 60 MINUTES FREE".

The exact car park location is here. So what is your advise to the driver?

Depends on what the signs actually said. The signs, not the machine. Got any pictures?

--Churchmouse
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Redivi
post Sat, 7 Jul 2018 - 07:53
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The OP originally posted a picture of the sign

There was an inconspicuous asterisk next to the word "Free"
Lower down it read * A valid ticket must be displayed or something similar
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daxilic
post Sun, 8 Jul 2018 - 11:22
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QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 23:07) *
The reasons were explained in the past paragraph of Post #2 If you do it too early they may just manage to get a corrected NTK to you before the 56 days are up. Too late and they will apply to DVLA for your details. They don't need to prove you're the keeper, they can get you details from the DVLA but the intention is to persuade them not to. I didnm't say a wrong address i said slightly different from that recorded on the V5 so you can tell if they have got your details from the DVLA or not. A valid address is needed so that they can write back !!


Ok so the correct address with a single very minor typo that still keeps the address valid.

Few questions:

What's a notice to keeper (NTK)? Is that sent after an appeal is rejected?

Why would they accept my appeal when its worth risking £2.50 to get £85?

What are the chances they would accept the appeal based on signage being unclear? I agree it is unclear but how is that decided?
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Redivi
post Sun, 8 Jul 2018 - 13:12
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A Notice to Keeper is the letter that Britannia sends to the registered keeper if the windscreen ticket isn't paid

It doesn't give them the right to recover payment from the registered keeper unless they paid £2-50 to obtain the details from the DVLA
Some companies try and save the £2-50 by using the details on file
The reason for providing mis-spelt details is to identify if they contacted DVLA or not

Most parking companies automatically reject appeals because the vast majority of victims will pay up and won't make a second appeal to the independent body POPLA
You can't however obtain the access code for the POPLA appeal until you've gone through the motions

This post has been edited by Redivi: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 - 13:12
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daxilic
post Sun, 8 Jul 2018 - 13:19
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Sun, 8 Jul 2018 - 14:12) *
A Notice to Keeper is the letter that Britannia sends to the registered keeper if the windscreen ticket isn't paid

It doesn't give them the right to recover payment from the registered keeper unless they paid £2-50 to obtain the details from the DVLA
Some companies try and save the £2-50 by using the details on file
The reason for providing mis-spelt details is to identify if they contacted DVLA or not

Most parking companies automatically reject appeals because the vast majority of victims will pay up and won't make a second appeal to the independent body POPLA
You can't however obtain the access code for the POPLA appeal until you've gone through the motions


Whether they contact the DVLA or not, how does that change the outcome - they will still reject an appeal? And if I do appeal all the way to POPLA what are my chances of winning?

Question out of interest: Back in the day you could throw away PCNs from private parking companies and they wouldn't chase payment and instead just use scare tactics. Is this still the case today or do these private companies really go all the way to debt recovery?
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Redivi
post Sun, 8 Jul 2018 - 13:45
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Whether they contact the DVLA or not, how does that change the outcome - they will still reject an appeal?
If they don't contact the DVLA, they can't recover payment from the keeper if they don't know who was driving

And if I do appeal all the way to POPLA what are my chances of winning?
In your case about 80%
If they don't contact the DVLA, closer to 100%
POPLA decisions are in any case only binding on the parking company - motorists are entitled to reject them

Question out of interest: Back in the day you could throw away PCNs from private parking companies and they wouldn't chase payment and instead just use scare tactics.
Is this still the case today or do these private companies really go all the way to debt recovery?

ParkingEye took Mr Beavis as far as the Supreme Court and won
Debt recovery letters are a good outcome because they can be ignored and are often a sign that the parking company doesn't want to go to court

This post has been edited by Redivi: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 - 13:46
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cabbyman
post Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 10:20
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PoFA 2012 Sched 4 paras 8(4), 8(5) & 11 apply.


--------------------
Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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daxilic
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:45
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Sun, 8 Jul 2018 - 14:45) *
Whether they contact the DVLA or not, how does that change the outcome - they will still reject an appeal?
If they don't contact the DVLA, they can't recover payment from the keeper if they don't know who was driving


I see. And the only reason they wouldn't contact the DVLA is because they don't want to pay anything? Meaning it all hangs on the amount they are willing to pay to get my information (£2 - £50)?

This post has been edited by daxilic: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:46
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 07:31
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£2.50 is the amount they pay. Not £50.
Some dont access hence why we suggets to do it this way.
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daxilic
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 11:49
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 08:31) *
£2.50 is the amount they pay. Not £50.
Some dont access hence why we suggets to do it this way.


I fully understand the process now and have sent the appeal on their website today saying the signage is unclear (today is day 26). I expect the appeal to be rejected within the next 35 days but get the POPLA code where I can appeal further (I have already prepared this based on what someone else wrote on a forum). I also changed one letter in my address as you guys suggested.

Regarding £50 I was confused by what Redivi said - writing "£2-50" rather than "£2.50" so ignore that.
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daxilic
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 15:45
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Today Britannia responded to my appeal and predictably rejected it. The intentional typo I added into my address is indeed at the top of the letter - does this mean they didn't contact the DVLA?

I have the POPLA code - Is it important when I make the popla appeal (within 28 days)? And is there anything important I should include?

I can attach the letter if it helps.

This post has been edited by daxilic: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 15:51
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ostell
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 16:00
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Was the letter you received a Notice to Keeper? Perhaps post it up.

Hold off on the POPLA appeal and send it in close to the end of the allowable time. In the meantime contact the DVLA (email address is in the forum somewhere, subjectaccess....????)

One of the possible failures you will mention to POPLA is that the have they have not sent a NTK within the 56 days or that did then they didn't contact the DVLA. You send in the appeal as close to the end as possible so that they are not reminded of their cockup and hurredly push out a valid NTK.
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