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ConfusedDaze
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 17:38
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Hey Guys,

Quick question I got asked by a friend who just got off the phone with me;

He was driving down a road in London (possibly slightly above the 30 speed limit - 35mph-ish), slowed well before the upcoming pedestrian crossing and then stopped, man crossing with his pram and partner were both looking at him a fair bit and when he pulled away from the crossing possibly the partner or man wrote down the number plate.

If they did write down the plate of the vehicle is there going to be anything to come of it?

I told him I thought there was almost no chance that the Met Police would follow up something like that it seems like it was almost a non-event to me but then again I thought I'd ask here as you guys know more than me.

Thanks
CD

This post has been edited by ConfusedDaze: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 17:40


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post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 17:38
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southpaw82
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 17:49
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For what?

Is your friend of a nervous disposition? I know of someone who could sell him some pear trees.


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DancingDad
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 18:11
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Reminds me of a slight argument I had with a couple about their toddler in a car park.
I turned corner, saw toddler running towards me, stopped, had to be at least 10 yards away.
To be berated by overanxious parents who thought I was speeding.
They in turn did not like being told to get the little bu55er under control if they were that worried about him.
Your mate worries too much.
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cp8759
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 18:35
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QUOTE (ConfusedDaze @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 17:38) *
If they did write down the plate of the vehicle is there going to be anything to come of it?

Even if the Met had limitless resources to pursue every possible road traffic allegation, they would have no admissible evidence of the vehicle's speed. Your friend is being paranoid.


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southpaw82
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 18:50
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 18:35) *
QUOTE (ConfusedDaze @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 17:38) *
If they did write down the plate of the vehicle is there going to be anything to come of it?

Even if the Met had limitless resources to pursue every possible road traffic allegation, they would have no admissible evidence of the vehicle's speed. Your friend is being paranoid.

The opinion of more than one witness? If I understood the OP correctly.


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cp8759
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 19:57
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 18:50) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 18:35) *
QUOTE (ConfusedDaze @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 17:38) *
If they did write down the plate of the vehicle is there going to be anything to come of it?

Even if the Met had limitless resources to pursue every possible road traffic allegation, they would have no admissible evidence of the vehicle's speed. Your friend is being paranoid.

The opinion of more than one witness? If I understood the OP correctly.

As far as I'm aware the courts would only accept opinion evidence as to the speed of a vehicle from a police officer, and possibly from a non-warranted expert (say a civilian forensic collision investigator), but not from a random member of the public (as they can't give opinion evidence at all).


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ConfusedDaze
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 20:15
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Yeah I basically told him as much but you guys know more than me about this so didn't want to jump the gun.

Presumably there were other people besides this guys partner at the crossing and going over the crossing when he stopped as he said he was going through a park of some sort.

Going to tell him to find something else to worry about !!!

*EDIT*
So from what I gather unless by chance one of them was an expert in speed detection/off duty police officer and they communicated with the (possibly) aggrieved parents then there's no chance and the odds of any of that actually happening is ridiculously small, so will tell him that!

This post has been edited by ConfusedDaze: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 21:21


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southpaw82
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 22:26
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 19:57) *
As far as I'm aware the courts would only accept opinion evidence as to the speed of a vehicle from a police officer, and possibly from a non-warranted expert (say a civilian forensic collision investigator), but not from a random member of the public (as they can't give opinion evidence at all).


Have you told the editors of Blackstone’s Criminal Practice? They seem to think non-expert opinion evidence is admissible, and even list speed as an example.

QUOTE (ConfusedDaze @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 20:15) *
So from what I gather unless by chance one of them was an expert in speed detection/off duty police officer


Incorrect.

QUOTE
and they communicated with the (possibly) aggrieved parents then there's no chance and the odds of any of that actually happening is ridiculously small, so will tell him that!

Correct.


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cp8759
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 23:07
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 22:26) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 19:57) *
As far as I'm aware the courts would only accept opinion evidence as to the speed of a vehicle from a police officer, and possibly from a non-warranted expert (say a civilian forensic collision investigator), but not from a random member of the public (as they can't give opinion evidence at all).


Have you told the editors of Blackstone’s Criminal Practice? They seem to think non-expert opinion evidence is admissible, and even list speed as an example.

While professional witnesses can give opinion evidence, I don't believe simple witnesses of fact can do so.

Admissibility aside, both the Met and the CPS will not, as a matter of policy, pursue any speeding offence without evidence captured from a home office type approved device. In fact even where there is dashcam evidence where a time and distance calculation could be made, the CPS will not, as a matter of policy, take the case forward.

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 22:26) *
QUOTE (ConfusedDaze @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 20:15) *
So from what I gather unless by chance one of them was an expert in speed detection/off duty police officer


Incorrect.

Indeed, if an off duty copper went into the station and told his sergeant about witnessing some maniac doing 35 in a 30 while off duty, I suspect he'd be told to prepare a file as soon as he's resolved the backlog of outstanding warrants, stabbings, robberies and other more pressing matters in the relevant borough. The chances of anything happening are zero.

The only realistic chances of being dealt with for 35 in a 30 are if you're caught by a speed camera, or an on-duty officer who's carrying out speed enforcement activities.


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ConfusedDaze
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 23:48
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Yeah I told him this, he said it might have been closer to 40mph and I told him its probably much the same outcome at 35 or 40 in a 30mph zone.

I think he's a bit calmer now, I mean realistically they probably didn't even write anything down, he's not even sure that happened beyond them looking at him as he left the crossing.

Will tell him to try and have a calmer outlook on life :-)

And from a logical point of view am I right in thinking the man & woman if they're partners they can't both be witnesses, they'd need to have someone not related to them? Or is that wrong? That's the only thing I roughly thought I knew!

This post has been edited by ConfusedDaze: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 23:50


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cp8759
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 01:40
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QUOTE (ConfusedDaze @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 23:48) *
Yeah I told him this, he said it might have been closer to 40mph and I told him its probably much the same outcome at 35 or 40 in a 30mph zone.

I think he's a bit calmer now, I mean realistically they probably didn't even write anything down, he's not even sure that happened beyond them looking at him as he left the crossing.

Will tell him to try and have a calmer outlook on life :-)

And from a logical point of view am I right in thinking the man & woman if they're partners they can't both be witnesses, they'd need to have someone not related to them? Or is that wrong? That's the only thing I roughly thought I knew!

The police will sometimes pursue serious driving offences (driving without due care and attention & dangerous driving) without video evidence if there are two or more independent witnesses, I hope that answers your question.


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samthecat
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 08:43
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 01:40) *
QUOTE (ConfusedDaze @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 23:48) *
Yeah I told him this, he said it might have been closer to 40mph and I told him its probably much the same outcome at 35 or 40 in a 30mph zone.

I think he's a bit calmer now, I mean realistically they probably didn't even write anything down, he's not even sure that happened beyond them looking at him as he left the crossing.

Will tell him to try and have a calmer outlook on life :-)

And from a logical point of view am I right in thinking the man & woman if they're partners they can't both be witnesses, they'd need to have someone not related to them? Or is that wrong? That's the only thing I roughly thought I knew!

The police will sometimes pursue serious driving offences (driving without due care and attention & dangerous driving) without video evidence if there are two or more independent witnesses, I hope that answers your question.


Corroboration is needed for speeding offences, Police could take action regarding other matters based on a single testimony.

Whilst it seems unlikely that there will be anything else to come from this incident we only have a third hand summary, the version of events described by the (potential) complainant could be significantly different.


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Incandescent
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 09:14
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Ahem...maybe you should suggest to your friend that he slows down a bit, then this sort of thing won't happen ! Was it a 30 mph limit; there are a lot of 20 mph limits in London now.
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Slapdash
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 09:38
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Perhaps their apparent concern was nothing related to his speed but related to where he stopped. Perhaps encroaching upon the crossing.
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southpaw82
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 12:38
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 23:07) *
While professional witnesses can give opinion evidence, I don't believe simple witnesses of fact can do so.


Can you cite an authority for that proposition? A court might give less weight to the evidence but it’s not inadmissible.


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cp8759
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 13:30
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 12:38) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 23:07) *
While professional witnesses can give opinion evidence, I don't believe simple witnesses of fact can do so.


Can you cite an authority for that proposition? A court might give less weight to the evidence but it’s not inadmissible.

I've not got a case to hand (but I have made enquiries) as I've always taken it as read. There are however reasonably reliable non-judicial sources to support this proposition:

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/witne...-and-allowances is based on The Crown Prosecution Service (Witnesses' etc. Allowances) Regulations 1988 which outlines a distinction between an ordinary witness of fact, a professional witness and an expert witness and gives a brief summary of what type of evidence is given by each type of witness

http://www.hse.gov.uk/enforce/enforcementg...ey.htm#P52_7438 (As the HSE is a public prosecutor I take their prosecution guidance to be generally reliable):

Opinions

17. Witnesses must only give evidence of facts observed by them, and not evidence of their opinion (i.e. evidence of inferences drawn from those facts). However, witnesses may give evidence of opinion as a means of conveying relevant facts observed by that witness. 14

18. For example, an assertion that a person was drunk may be a convenient way of describing what the witness saw, heard or smelt which led him or her to form that opinion. The court will allow such statements as long as no special expertise is necessary.

19. The court may need expert opinion on matters outside of its experience. When this need arises, expert opinion is admissible. Expert witnesses may give an opinion upon facts that are either admitted or proved in evidence. (You should refer to the section on Expert Evidence for further information).


https://www.jspubs.com/experts/fs/60.pdf

Witness evidence in criminal trials
There are three different types of witness:

• witness of fact (eyewitness) – someone who observed
or heard something during an incident and can give
evidence about what happened, but must not give an
opinion, e.g. an eyewitness to a road traffic accident. A
statement is given, and an appearance at court is required
unless all sides agree that the statement can be read in
court.

• professional witness – a professional who saw
something happen in the course of their everyday job,
e.g. police officers and police surgeons. They mainly give
factual evidence, but can offer some opinion. A statement
is made and, if the statement is not disputed, a court
appearance will be unnecessary.

• expert witness – a professional called to give expert
opinion based on the facts (assumed or observed) of a
case. An expert witness will write a report and will be
asked to attend court if any party wishes to hear his oral
evidence or conduct a cross-examination of his evidence.


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The Rookie
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 15:11
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 14:30) *
However, witnesses may give evidence of opinion as a means of conveying relevant facts observed by that witness.

Hmm, so in a witnesses opinion the car was speeding, that would be evidence of a fact, the speed of the car?

I think you just agreed with SP.


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DancingDad
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 16:41
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 15:11) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 14:30) *
However, witnesses may give evidence of opinion as a means of conveying relevant facts observed by that witness.

Hmm, so in a witnesses opinion the car was speeding, that would be evidence of a fact, the speed of the car?

I think you just agreed with SP.

Not necessarily of actual speed but quite possibly that speed seemed excessive, as per 18.
QUOTE
18. For example, an assertion that a person was drunk may be a convenient way of describing what the witness saw, heard or smelt which led him or her to form that opinion. The court will allow such statements as long as no special expertise is necessary.


"I formed an opinion that they were speeding before they stopped cos of the screech when they braked, smoke was coming off of the tyres and it was snaking all over the road"
May not be firm evidence of 35 in a 30 limit but not something I think a court would dismiss out of hand.

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Ocelot
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 16:54
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If your friend gets convicted for a slight speeding offence based on the opinion of a bystander, with no Police around, I would suggest he keep an eye out for Elvis riding Bigfoot next time he's out and about.

Sometimes NIPs are sent for alleged offences such as DWDCA , but the ones I've read about here seem to get dropped if denied.

Forces usually require either dashcam footage or the opinion of two independent witnesses who are prepared to testify in Court, according to their own websites.
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cp8759
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 18:05
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 16:41) *
"I formed an opinion that they were speeding before they stopped cos of the screech when they braked, smoke was coming off of the tyres and it was snaking all over the road"
May not be firm evidence of 35 in a 30 limit but not something I think a court would dismiss out of hand.

A witness can state that the tyres screeched, and smoke came off the tyres, but their opinion as to whether the vehicle was speeding would be irrelevant. Unless they were holding a timer and did a manual time and distance calculation at the time (assuming landmarks at known distances were present on the road), what facts could the witness put forward to support an assertion that the vehicle was speeding?

QUOTE (Ocelot @ Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 16:54) *
Forces usually require either dashcam footage or the opinion evidence of fact of two independent witnesses who are prepared to testify in Court, according to their own websites.

FTFY


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