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Urgent help needed! Court papers just arrived!
31gregg
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 18:33
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Hi guys,

Been reading through the threads on here and this definitely looks like the best place for some decent advice. I hope Gan or anyone else will be able to help me.

I have lived at my current address for 6 years now which I own. I live in a block of new build flats and we each have our own parking bays and spaces around the flats that we can and have been parking in for years. I have parked in the same place for over 4.5 years. Came home from work one day and double yellow lines had been painted all round our flats and signs had been placed up saying Parking Ticketing LTD are now monitoring the private land and parking tickets will be issued for any cars parked on the yellow lines.

We all pay £1370 per year maintenance costs for the flats which includes allocation and maintaining our parking areas and all common grounds. Just so happens the director of the maintenance company was on site when the yellow lines went down and I came home from work. His very words were "Don't worry about them, its just a deterrent to stop people parking everywhere and they're not enforceable."

I continue to park in the same place I always have done, weeks later a PCN is on my windscreen. I do my research.......throw it in the bin and ignore it. After about 10 more tickets on my car I get the letters through the post from DRP (debt recovery plus) and PCS (parking collection services). I ignore them and hope they get bored of writing to me.

Then 13/08/15 I receive a claim form from the county court in Northampton demanding £566.95.

I came straight on here and read through plenty of threads etc. I responded to the claim via moneyclaim.gov.uk stating I was going to defend all of the amount and that gave me the 28 days to make my defense. I have had no contact with the parking companies issuing the PCN.

So what shall I do next guys? I've got the excellent template response that GAN has posted on here. If anyone can help me with my defense I will be extremely grateful as I've never done any of this before.

Thanks guys, Gregg.

This post has been edited by 31gregg: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 18:46
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post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 18:33
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cabbyman
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 18:40
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What is the PRECISE wording in your lease about parking?


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31gregg
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 18:43
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Just to add, the court papers are claiming 3 outstanding PCN for July and August last year.

05/07/14
19/07/14
04/08/14

I no longer own the car they were issued to nor do I remember who was driving the car back then as a few people had access to it. They got my details from the DVLA as current owner.

The double yellow lines painted all around the flats do not comply with the traffic sign regs. They are not the right size and have no T-bar lines at the end of every set of yellow lines.

So as far as I know my defense is:

I have not entered into any contract with the company.
I do not know who was driving the car on those dates.
The yellow lines do not comply to legal traffic sign regs.

Any help would be fantastic guys thanks you!



This post has been edited by 31gregg: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 18:43
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Gan
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 18:43
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What's the full and exact name including any Ltd of the company that's been issuing the notices, putting up any signs and bringing the claim

There's no such company as Parking Services Ltd

And as Cabbyman says, what does your lease say ?
That trumps any signs placed by a contractor
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31gregg
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 18:49
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 19:40) *
What is the PRECISE wording in your lease about parking?



I dont know to be honest mate. I'll have to look into it but I dont even have copies of my lease, they are filed away somewhere at the solicitors I used 6 years ago and costs £25 to receive them.

Does it even make a difference with the info I have added? Thanks.

QUOTE (Gan @ Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 19:43) *
What's the full and exact name including any Ltd of the company that's been issuing the notices, putting up any signs and bringing the claim

There's no such company as Parking Services Ltd

And as Cabbyman says, what does your lease say ?
That trumps any signs placed by a contractor


Sorry Gan my mistake! Its Parking Ticketing LTD.

When you say it trumps it what exactly do you mean? I've never read the parking part of the lease as we as flat owners (and even the people that rent theirs) could always park where ever we wanted around the flats as it was never a problem. We each have our own allocated parking bay which are numbered. Everywhere else is just free to park whenever you want.

This post has been edited by 31gregg: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 21:39
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cabbyman
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 18:50
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Your lease will be your trump card.

Winning this on the usual grounds is one thing. They will try again later.

Using your lease to prove your rights to the land and the management company's breach of your right to quiet enjoyment of the same will enable you to stop them from ever doing it in future.

This post has been edited by cabbyman: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 18:50


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31gregg
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 18:55
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 19:50) *
Your lease will be your trump card.

Winning this on the usual grounds is one thing. They will try again later.

Using your lease to prove your rights to the land and the management company's breach of your right to quiet enjoyment of the same will enable you to stop them from ever doing it in future.


I had thought about this and hoped by being a leaseholder it may hold some weight to all this.

I really don't have a clue with the legal side of all this so please feel free to describe it all to me like I'm a brain dead dog lost in the desert! biggrin.gif huh.gif

So I will definitely need to get a copy of my lease as my defense? I didnt want to spend any money sorting this out (time is bad enough) and getting my lease will cost £25 as far as I know.

So what does being a lease holder actually mean in this case? Thanks guys.
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Gan
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 19:00
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Your idiot management company could not possibly employ a worse contractor

It's this gentleman

Mario Ireland is a notorious clamper who turned to aggressive ticketing when his practice was banned
He was thrown out of the British Parking Association and returned with a "clean" company

http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/9928017.print/
http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/9935166.Ca..._drivers_twice/

If your lease says nothing about parking conditions, your management company can't introduce them without your consent.

If regulation hasn't existed until recently, it's a near certainty that your management company has exceeded its authority

This post has been edited by Gan: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 19:28
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31gregg
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 19:11
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QUOTE (Gan @ Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 20:00) *
Your idiot management company could not possibly employ a worse contractor

It's this gentleman

Mario Ireland is a notorious clamper who turned to aggressive ticketing when his npractice was band
He was thrown out of the British Parking Association and returned with a "clean" company

http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/9928017.print/
http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/9935166.Ca..._drivers_twice/

If your lease says nothing about parking conditions, your management company can't introduce them without your consent.

If regulation hasn't existed until recently, it's a near certainty that your management company has exceeded its authority


Excellent thanks Gan, knew you'd have some great advice! Myself or any of the other flat owners in my building most definitely did NOT give any consent at all for Parking Ticketing LTD or any other company to introduce parking conditions.

So whats my next step? What exactly do I need to do? What if my lease does give parking info? (I'm pretty sure it doesn't or it will be along the lines of 'each flat has one allocated parking space') but as I've said for over 5 years everyone has been parking sensibly around the flats as there has been no restriction or 'policing'.
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cabbyman
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 19:25
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You could ask the management company to provide you with a copy of the document that gave them authority to trespass on your land or get them to provide it to the court.

Do you have any letters or advice from your solicitor when you acquired the lease that summarises your rights and responsibilities over the property?


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Gan
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 19:35
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The usual situation

A parking company offers to manage parking for no charge at a site where no problem really exists.
The management company might even get a commission

The only way the parking company ever gets an income is by targeting residents for trivial infringements - usually for not displaying permits on their own property

It's in their interest not to solve any parking problem
How was removing much of the parking area by painting yellow lines supposed to help ?
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31gregg
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 19:48
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 20:25) *
You could ask the management company to provide you with a copy of the document that gave them authority to trespass on your land or get them to provide it to the court.

Do you have any letters or advice from your solicitor when you acquired the lease that summarises your rights and responsibilities over the property?


Thanks mate I'll get onto my 'shafting' company and ask for that document. Do you think it wont even exist then? If it does exist?

Sorry guys I really dont know the law with all this and its a fecking headache already. I haven't got a copy of my lease (never have done) and the solicitor only briefly went through the lease when I bought my flat 6 years ago, it was all standard stuff and nothing really stood out.

So my next move is......

Get a copy of my lease and see what it says.
Get the management company to show me the document of authority for the Parking ticketing LTD to be on 'our' land.
What else guys?

So just to be clear....the fact that I am a leaseholder is my 'get out of jail free card'? I've got 3.5 weeks to have my defense in for the court claim.

This post has been edited by 31gregg: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 19:50
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cabbyman
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 19:52
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Unless your lease said words to the effect that 'includes the parking space numbered and a valid permit must be displayed........,' they are stuffed.

Incidentally, what are the PRECISE particulars of claim on the court papers you have received?

This post has been edited by cabbyman: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 19:53


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31gregg
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 19:58
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 20:52) *
Unless your lease said words to the effect that 'includes the parking space numbered and a valid permit must be displayed........,' they are stuffed.

Incidentally, what are the PRECISE particulars of claim on the court papers you have received?


Definitely no permit has ever been stated to me, never had one, neither has any of the other residence in my building. 100%. Its private land, up a private dead end road. No where near the public road etc.

I will post a photo of the court claim form for you mate.


So guys how do I reply to the courts?

Sorry for all the questions......I'm a brain dead dog remember! biggrin.gif
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cabbyman
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 20:09
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Deep breath. Don't panic.

This thread is only an hour and a half old and you already have a few things to think about.

Others will be along on due course to add their ideas then you need to pull it all together into a draft defence for checking on here before submission.

It's important to explore avenues at this stage so that you get it perfected before it goes off.



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31gregg
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 20:51
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 21:09) *
Deep breath. Don't panic.

This thread is only an hour and a half old and you already have a few things to think about.

Others will be along on due course to add their ideas then you need to pull it all together into a draft defence for checking on here before submission.

It's important to explore avenues at this stage so that you get it perfected before it goes off.


Yep exactly what I plan to do mate smile.gif Problem is its the draft defense that I need a hand with, the wording and lay out etc.

I also have the same company sending the exact same letters etc to me now on my current car that I own. I have had several PCN from them and then letters from DRP. I havent responded to them at all. Shall I send the default letter that has been posted on here? 'I havent entered into any contract with you, I'm not going to pay, end of matter' etc.


This post has been edited by 31gregg: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 20:51
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Gan
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 21:37
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For now the important thing is to return the Acknowledgement of Service
Tick the box that you dispute the whole of the claim

This gets you time to put in a decent defence

Regarding DR+, you can ignore or send the "Debt denied, refer to client" letter that they will ignore

It's rather a shame that you ignored all the Parking Notices

If you had challenged each one, you could have got them cancelled at POPLA

It would have cost him £27 every time and he would have soon learned to white list your car
You could then have displayed your victories on the notice board for the benefit of the other residents

Once your flats had started becoming a money pit, he would have moved on
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31gregg
post Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 22:03
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QUOTE (Gan @ Sun, 16 Aug 2015 - 22:37) *
For now the important thing is to return the Acknowledgement of Service
Tick the box that you dispute the whole of the claim

This gets you time to put in a decent defence

Regarding DR+, you can ignore or send the "Debt denied, refer to client" letter that they will ignore

It's rather a shame that you ignored all the Parking Notices

If you had challenged each one, you could have got them cancelled at POPLA

It would have cost him £27 every time and he would have soon learned to white list your car
You could then have displayed your victories on the notice board for the benefit of the other residents

Once your flats had started becoming a money pit, he would have moved on


Yep I've done that mate, Acknowledgement of service has gone back online and I've ticked dispute the entire claim. I'll send the letter tomorrow morning to DRP. I know what their reply will be. I've got the excellent templates ready.

Yeah I should of done something sooner about the PCN but the advice from the net and watchdog etc was ignore and bin.

Can I not use POPLA for the current letters from DRP issued to my current car? All the actual PCN have been shredded though so if theyre needed I'm sh*t out of luck.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 17 Aug 2015 - 07:00
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If it has gotten to the DRP stage they will claim you are out of time to appeal to POPLA. Its nothign set in stone of course - just their arbitrary timetable they make up to disadvantage you

The advice on "ignore" changed about 3 years ago - youre thinking of the old watchdog episode from about 2011. Unfortunately since then a law was brought in that means they can try to hold the keeper responsible

The key thing is your lease. Your lease states what rights ou have, and as it is older (far older) than the contract can be with these scammers, it "trumps" (beats, overrides, etc) any contract made later

It is almost certain it will NOT say anything about needing a permit, or complying with parking management schemes, but it is key that you get a copy to check for yourself.

Once you confirm that they have no right to enforce parking management on you, then write to the management company informing them of this, remove their implied right to trespass on your land (including your vehicle(s)) and warn them that you can take legal action in the furtue.

Wording / LAyout of Defence:

Have a look for Gans EXCELLENT "CEL defence" thread (not the exact title, likely on page two by now) - that gives you an example of the layout (numbered paragraphs, summary at the TOP of the key legal arguments you are making, etc) you should be considering, along with some of the key cases.

There are MANY very, very experienced posters on here who can help. If you need to take something "off board" then a PM to posters such as GAn are usually welcomed by them, however you will likely have to warn them, so they can clear a space out - the regulars have to keep their inbox full otherwise they never get any peace!
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31gregg
post Mon, 17 Aug 2015 - 10:42
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Excellent thank you very much! I've just got my lease in front of me now......surpise surpirse it states absolutely nothing about about needing a permit or complying with parking management schemes!

What is states is:

The Second Schedule
(rights included in the lease)

9. Right to use casual parking spaces

to use (for the purpose of parking of a single private motor vehicle tax insured and in roadworthy condition) such of the casual car parking spaces within the development (if any) marking CPS on the plan as may from time to time be available.


I've checked the plan in the lease, no CPS in marked on it.

10. right to use estate roads

to pass and repass with or without vehicles along the estate roads.


Right so now I really do need help writing up my defence. Gan could you please help me with that or anyone else on here. I've got Gan's 'CEL' response printed out to refer to but I'm not legally minded so not sure which parts to include and which not to.

Being a leaseholder at this property is my trump card then right? The PCN and court claims have no legal upstanding at all then? Just to make it perfectly clear. So do I now write to my management company and tell them what exactly? I have asked them for proof of documentation that states parking ticketing LTD can work on our land. So far, no responce.

I obviously want to get this done and dusted and sent off to the court ASAP. Any help wording it and getting it sent will be greatly appreciated guys!

Thank you!


Gan tried to PM you but your inbox is full! Please let me know when I can send the message over. Thanks.
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