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'Not in proper control', Help required please on technical matters
loxilane
post Tue, 31 Aug 2010 - 12:44
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Hi,
I was recently stopped by a motorcycle patrol on the A282 Dartford Crossing. The reason for the stop was that I'd picked up and looked at a handheld satnav device while queuing for the toll booths. I would point out that when I looked at the device, my car was stationary with footbrake and handbrake on and out of gear. The time spent looking at the device was no more than 10 seconds.
My location was about 150m north of the toll booths - which are on the south side of the crossing.

The constable reported me for 'not in proper control of motor vehicle' and issued a fixed penalty notice 3 points/£60. I do not believe that I am guilty and propose to go to court.

I have noticed that on the 'roadside deposit/graduated penalty notice' form (where do they get these names?) the location is recorded as Thurrock. However, the alleged offence and stop actually took place on the south side of the Thames which, according to any maps I've been able to find, is in Dartford, rather than Thurrock. The Dartford Borough Council and Highways Agency websites confirm this.

So is the error in recording the location sufficient to scupper the case? If so do I or can I take any steps before actually getting to court?

Thanks in advance for reading!
Brian

This post has been edited by loxilane: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 - 08:24
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post Tue, 31 Aug 2010 - 12:44
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Rallyman72
post Tue, 31 Aug 2010 - 12:56
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Location is not material as you were stopped by the BiB at the time. It can, and will, be corrected in court if challenged.


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Logician
post Tue, 31 Aug 2010 - 13:09
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It is an entirely ludicrous charge to bring when the vehicle is stationary, I hope if it gets to court it is thrown out with some well chosen words - Good Luck!


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jobo
post Tue, 31 Aug 2010 - 13:11
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NiPC is a catch all offence that covers a multitude of things you cant do whilst driving

however it differs from the moby offence in that its a lot less specific in what you CANT do and when and requires you to actually not be in a position to control ,rather than the theoretical, might not be in control given by the moby offence

if you were stationary in neutral with the HB on then id say they had no chance of getting a conviction

though there was the infamous apple case where they did ?

This post has been edited by jobo: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 - 13:13


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loxilane
post Tue, 31 Aug 2010 - 14:15
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Thanks for the comments so far. I didn't realise that the location did not have to be accurate so that's useful to know. As for the rest of the charge, it's a wonder that the constable concerned doesn't just park up 100 yards further on where he can book an endless stream of motorists taking at least one hand off the steering wheel to search for change and pay the toll happy.gif

Brian
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Gan
post Tue, 31 Aug 2010 - 14:50
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In the apple case, Sarah was driving with it in her hand and made a turn.

If you fancy your chances you have to inform the police that you're rejecting the ticket and want the matter to go to court. If you don't do this and simply fail to pay, it will be treated as an unpaid fine and increased by 50%.
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desktop_demon
post Tue, 31 Aug 2010 - 15:14
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having read this thread and Mayhem007's thread one wonders how a police occifer driving a car at over 100mph can hand operate a Police Pilot unit and still be in full control of his speeding vehicle. The answer is of course that unless a lack of control is shown the charge is very often a complete load of bollox.

If the facts are as reported then IMHO the charge is worth contesting in court.


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captain swoop
post Tue, 31 Aug 2010 - 15:39
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Qs that do a lot of stop and start are going to be popular for this sort of thing. Momentary lapse of concentration, think the cars are moving then oops, into the bumper of the car in front. Seen it loads of times at toll booths and in roadworks or heavy morning traffic.

This post has been edited by captain swoop: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 - 15:42
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loxilane
post Tue, 31 Aug 2010 - 16:34
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I've already rejected the ticket and applied for the court case.

One irony is that the officer on the motorcycle stopped me by overtaking on the inside. He then took one hand off the handlebars, turned around and pointed first at me then a coned-off refuge area.

I also ride motorcycles and I certainly wouldn't class that as being in proper control!
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jobo
post Tue, 31 Aug 2010 - 16:53
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QUOTE (Gan @ Tue, 31 Aug 2010 - 15:50) *
In the apple case, Sarah was driving with it in her hand and made a turn.



think your right, it was a water bottle whilst stationary, just tried to find iot and got this instead which is quite interesting re NIPC

http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/pdf/FOI...Log/3437_10.pdf, though unfortunately it doesnt go in to detail if they were stationary or not

including this which is my fav not in PC

Driver took hands off the wheel to pick up a plastic water pistol to fire at passing motorcyclist

This post has been edited by jobo: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 - 16:55


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Top Cat
post Wed, 1 Sep 2010 - 07:50
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QUOTE (loxilane @ Tue, 31 Aug 2010 - 17:34) *
I've already rejected the ticket and applied for the court case.

One irony is that the officer on the motorcycle stopped me by overtaking on the inside. He then took one hand off the handlebars, turned around and pointed first at me then a coned-off refuge area.

I also ride motorcycles and I certainly wouldn't class that as being in proper control!


For good or ill you may be aware that the police have numerous powers and exemptions on the road not available to other motorists. The circumstances of how the officer stopped you is not going to change the status quo and the court won't be interested should you raise it.Best to concentrate on your own defences.
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loxilane
post Wed, 1 Sep 2010 - 08:30
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Thanks, TC.
I don't plan to make any comments about the constable's actions - simply to state the facts about the incidents surrounding the stop as I saw them.
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loxilane
post Wed, 1 Sep 2010 - 08:30
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And thanks for the other comments everyone. I'll let you know how I get on.

This post has been edited by loxilane: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 - 08:33
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ollielumley
post Wed, 1 Sep 2010 - 18:30
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2 points is not very significant in our current system because points tend to be awarded in multiples of 3. It would not affect, for example, the speed with which you receive a totting-up ban.

Obviously as you feel it was unjust you may wish to contest it out of principle.
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