Advisory Disabled Bays |
Advisory Disabled Bays |
Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 12:08
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 8 Jul 2019 Member No.: 104,651 |
My sister-in-law is disabled and applied to Sheffield for an advisory disabled parking bay. Click to access relevant website info.
Her application was rejected. I offered to look into it. From my research it appears that no council should be offering to place advisory disabled parking bays. This is because the General Directions pertaining to Schedule 7 prohibit placing road markings that include a “word or phrase” unless given the force of law. Click and scroll to bottom. Typically this would be a TRO. My research also leads me to believe that Sheffield has no power to charge a £100 assessment fee or a £120 road marking fee in relation to advisory disabled parking bays. This is because neither the RTRA 1984 nor The Local Authorities (Transport Charges) Regulations 1998 provide any authority for them to do so. Obviously they would not, if the law prohibits the placing of advisory disabled bays in the first place! There is no need for Sheffield to act as they are doing because they can provide disabled bays for specific users. All they have to do is include the disabled bay in a TRO and add a unique alphanumeric identifier to the road marking. It seems that they cannot charge for doing this though. Assuming my research is correct, I want to take this up with Sheffield as they should act within the law and not charge without authority, but I do not want to ruin anything for the disabled. What do members suggest as the best course of action? Silas. |
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Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 12:08
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Sun, 29 Sep 2019 - 10:24
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 8 Jul 2019 Member No.: 104,651 |
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Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 17:49
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#22
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
Late on this one.
The key to getting dedicated disabled bays in London has been the issue of a permit to the lucky individual. Councils can issue parking permits under legislation for a multitude of reasons. When someone inadvertently parks in one of these dedicated bays, even with a Blue Badge, the contravention is "Parked in a permit space or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit where required". Advisory bays are neither one thing or another and I am pretty sure that a non- disabled person would not get a parking ticket for using one. I cast grave doubt on the Council asking an individual for £100 when the bay would be open to all. One issue that hasn't been looked at is whether the OP's sister in law has a vehicle access crossing to get to the hardstanding area noted by the Council in its rejection. If she hasn't then crossing of the footway is illegal and the Council should be taken to task for even suggesting it. If that is the case, I would ask that the £100 be refunded. Mick This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 17:51 |
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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 01:38
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 195 Joined: 4 Mar 2014 Member No.: 69,189 |
a search of the internet reveals Cornwall charge thousands https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42772258
Reading charge only £58 http://www.reading.gov.uk/disabledbox and Milton Keynes charge nearly £200 https://www.milton-keynes.gov.uk/highways-a...visory-markings From what I gather from other posts, no council has any power under the road traffic acts to charge for this and yet many do. How much does this add up to nationally over all the years? It goes to show how many councils are either ignorant or don't think the law applies to their actions. It does not surprise me. I've seen it too often in my life. This post has been edited by Wretched Rectum: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 15:28 |
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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 06:24
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,196 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
I complained about a local advisory bay ages ago, the council basically said we’re putting it there, so what, the local government ombudsman wouldn’t entertain my complaint on the basis I wasn’t personally affected. That person didn’t need one as he had off street parking behind the house and could always park across the entrance to that to pick his wife up (the one with mobility issues).
We have one in our street now but while the lady concerned doesn’t qualify strictly she has sufficient mobility issues that having to park the frequently 100+ yards away otherwise mean I don’t take advantage. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 13:28
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 8 Jul 2019 Member No.: 104,651 |
No response from Sheffield City Council yet. Not even an acknowledgement. Does anyone have an email address for their complaints team? They craftily don't give it out on their website.
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Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 13:41
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#26
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Webmaster Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,205 Joined: 30 Mar 2003 From: Wokingham, UK Member No.: 2 |
Does anyone have an email address for their complaints team? They craftily don't give it out on their website. Funny, when I just looked they have a dedicated complaints page linked to from their home page. -------------------- Regards,
Fredd __________________________________________________________________________
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Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 16:00
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 8 Jul 2019 Member No.: 104,651 |
Does anyone have an email address for their complaints team? They craftily don't give it out on their website. Funny, when I just looked they have a dedicated complaints page linked to from their home page. I've used that link several times and never received a response to my complaint or to my follow up enquiries seeking confirmation of its receipt. They don't provide a direct email address but I've been on to a councillor and got one now. They told me they did not get my complaint or enquiries that I submitted in early October and throughout. I have had to re-submit it. Waiting now for confirmation of its receipt. |
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Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 23:06
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 8 Jul 2019 Member No.: 104,651 |
Received this email and attachment on the 17th Dec.
QUOTE Good Morning Mr M Firstly, may I apologise for the length of time it has taken to respond to your original complaint which was sent on the 4th November, 2019. Unfortunately, I did not receive the complaint until the 19th November, 2019 - some two weeks later. I attach, for your information, a copy of your original complaint and a copy of a House of Commons Briefing Paper which deals specifically with Blue Badges and parking for the disabled in England. I refer you to section 5 of the briefing paper and in particular sub-section 5.2 which relates to the use of Advisory Spaces. In response to your complaint I would like to make the following comments: 1. This Council has the authority to mark bays for disabled parking these can be both statutory or advisory, where the statutory bay is subject to a TRO and can be enforced the latter advisory bay is unenforceable. 2. There is no requirement for this Council to introduce statutory disabled parking bays (to include a TRO), it has a discretion to mark out advisory bays where no TRO is required (as it unenforceable). 3. This Council can make any such charges for any services they provide where such services where there is no statutory requirement to do so. Kind Regards, Andy Mckie City Growth Service Sheffield City Council, Howden House, Union Street, Sheffield S1 2SH See post 18 for complaint that was sent. Note that they refer to a briefing paper rather than any law. The TSRGD 2016 (actual law) as I explained in previous posts does not support the briefing paper. Note also that they do not refer to the law they believe allows them to charge . It's not a convincing response and I will go on to the next stage. Note that they fail to advise me how to proceed to the next stage. I'll pick them up on this also. Dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to prevent the placing of disabled bays. I just want them placed lawfully. What law allows advisory bays and allows a council to randomly charge whatever they feel is appropriate for them? I can't find any law. Can anyone here? This post has been edited by Silas M: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 - 01:01
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Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 23:24
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Section 93 of the Local Government Act 2003, if they’re authorised by an enactment to provide the service.
-------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 23:41
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 8 Jul 2019 Member No.: 104,651 |
Section 93 of the Local Government Act 2003, if they’re authorised by an enactment to provide the service. Agreed but they're not authorised as far as I can tell. The TSRGD 2016 (schedule 7, Part 7)) is clear that a TRO is not required so long as the bay marking does not include a word or phrase. QUOTE 1.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraph (2), the signs provided for in this Schedule must only be placed to indicate the effect of an Act, order, regulation, bylaw, resolution or notice which prohibits or restricts the use of the road by traffic. (2) Sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to the road markings provided for at the following items in the sign table in Part 4— (a)6, but only where the marking— (i)does not include a word or phrase; and (ii)is not in a controlled parking zone "Disabled" is a word or a phrase and so sub-paragraph 1 applies, meaning a disabled bay must be backed by either a "Act, order, regulation, bylaw, resolution or notice which prohibits or restricts the use of the road by traffic." Some councils charge hundreds for "advisory" bays and as far as I can tell, there is no lawful justification for it. This post has been edited by Silas M: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 - 00:00 |
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Fri, 20 Dec 2019 - 00:05
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Does the TSRGD prohibit it being used (i.e. it is unlawful to use it) without a TRO or does it simply mean it’s not a traffic sign (and therefore unenforceable)?
-------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Fri, 20 Dec 2019 - 00:54
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 8 Jul 2019 Member No.: 104,651 |
Does the TSRGD prohibit it being used (i.e. it is unlawful to use it) without a TRO or does it simply mean it’s not a traffic sign (and therefore unenforceable)? The TSRGD 2016 says "must only be placed to indicate the effect of an Act, order, regulation, bylaw, resolution or notice which prohibits or restricts the use of the road by traffic." So it's reasonable to assume it (the physical marking) cannot be used (placed) unless it indicates the effect of something legally binding such as a TRO or TMO. I learned from a member that a similar complaint was made to Leicester and they then suspended advisory bays https://www.leicester.gov.uk/transport-and-...arking-at-home/ Newham also recognise disabled bays require a legal process (TMO). QUOTE What happens after you apply
We will: check the information you have sent to us write to you within six weeks to tell you our decision. If your application is successful, we will go to the site to see where we could safely put a bay. Before we can mark out the bay we have to carry out a legal process. This can take six months or occasionally longer. You will need a free disabled resident parking permit to park in the bay. We will write to you to let you know when you can apply for a disabled resident parking permit. A Blue Badge is not valid within a disabled resident parking bay. This post has been edited by Silas M: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 - 01:29 |
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Fri, 20 Dec 2019 - 01:15
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#33
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Member Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 8 Jul 2019 Member No.: 104,651 |
I complained about a local advisory bay ages ago, the council basically said we’re putting it there, so what, the local government ombudsman wouldn’t entertain my complaint on the basis I wasn’t personally affected. That person didn’t need one as he had off street parking behind the house and could always park across the entrance to that to pick his wife up (the one with mobility issues). We have one in our street now but while the lady concerned doesn’t qualify strictly she has sufficient mobility issues that having to park the frequently 100+ yards away otherwise mean I don’t take advantage. Next time point out that you are personally affected as you have been denied your legal right to object under regulation 8 of this had the law been properly followed. Which council? This post has been edited by Silas M: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 - 01:25 |
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Fri, 20 Dec 2019 - 09:04
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Does the TSRGD prohibit it being used (i.e. it is unlawful to use it) without a TRO or does it simply mean it’s not a traffic sign (and therefore unenforceable)? The TSRGD 2016 says "must only be placed to indicate the effect of an Act, order, regulation, bylaw, resolution or notice which prohibits or restricts the use of the road by traffic." So it's reasonable to assume it (the physical marking) cannot be used (placed) unless it indicates the effect of something legally binding such as a TRO or TMO. Perhaps but not necessarily so. The purpose of the TSRGD is to prescribe traffic signs, not to prohibit their use. Use of what would otherwise be a traffic sign out with the bounds of the TSRGD doesn’t seem to be an offence or otherwise unlawful under the TSRGD. What the TSRGD seems to be saying is that such a sign must be placed etc. if it is to be a prescribed traffic sign - it doesn’t say what the consequences are if it is not. Section 64 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 is perhaps more helpful, in that 64(4) prohibits the placing of traffic signs except as provided by the Act. What is a traffic sign is set out in 64(1). Whether the placing of an otherwise prescribed marking but not to give effect to a prohibition or restriction means it is still a traffic sign isn’t something I’m aware has been decided. I’d say it is. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Sat, 21 Dec 2019 - 21:20
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#35
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Member Group: Members Posts: 516 Joined: 27 Sep 2008 Member No.: 22,840 |
Does the TSRGD prohibit it being used (i.e. it is unlawful to use it) without a TRO or does it simply mean it’s not a traffic sign (and therefore unenforceable)? The TSRGD 2016 says "must only be placed to indicate the effect of an Act, order, regulation, bylaw, resolution or notice which prohibits or restricts the use of the road by traffic." So it's reasonable to assume it (the physical marking) cannot be used (placed) unless it indicates the effect of something legally binding such as a TRO or TMO. Section 65(1) RTRA 1984 is binding QUOTE 65 Powers and duties of authorities as to placing of traffic signs. The traffic authority may cause or permit traffic signs to be placed on or near a road, subject to and in conformity with such general directions or such other directions as may be given by the relevant authority. The directions are the TSRGD 2016 and as you point out, these directions don't allow a bay marking that includes a phrase or word to be marked on the carriageway unless there is a legal document that gives it effect. Chapter 3 TSM section 13.1.2 also says so. As far as I can tell there is no such thing as an advisory disabled bay in legal terms. No mention of them in the RTRA 1984, TSRGD 2016 (or 2002) and no mention of them in the trafic sign manuals. Looks like councils have once again twisted the law in order to increase income. |
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Sun, 22 Dec 2019 - 20:51
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Section 64 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 is perhaps more helpful, in that 64(4) prohibits the placing of traffic signs except as provided by the Act. What is a traffic sign is set out in 64(1). Whether the placing of an otherwise prescribed marking but not to give effect to a prohibition or restriction means it is still a traffic sign isn’t something I’m aware has been decided. I’d say it is. I like the explanation given by the Department for Transport in Traffic Advisory Leaflet 01/13 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...ign-clutter.pdf Removing unlawful traffic signs Traffic signs in use on the highway must either be prescribed by the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) as amended, or be specially authorised by the Secretary of State, or the Scottish or Welsh Governments. Signs that are neither prescribed nor authorised are unlawful obstructions on the highway and should be removed. My understanding has always been that nothing can be placed on the highway unless there is specific legal authority for it. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 16:15
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,276 Joined: 4 Apr 2003 From: Northants Member No.: 20 |
Section 64 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 is perhaps more helpful, in that 64(4) prohibits the placing of traffic signs except as provided by the Act. What is a traffic sign is set out in 64(1). Whether the placing of an otherwise prescribed marking but not to give effect to a prohibition or restriction means it is still a traffic sign isn’t something I’m aware has been decided. I’d say it is. I like the explanation given by the Department for Transport in Traffic Advisory Leaflet 01/13 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...ign-clutter.pdf Removing unlawful traffic signs Traffic signs in use on the highway must either be prescribed by the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) as amended, or be specially authorised by the Secretary of State, or the Scottish or Welsh Governments. Signs that are neither prescribed nor authorised are unlawful obstructions on the highway and should be removed. My understanding has always been that nothing can be placed on the highway unless there is specific legal authority for it. This seems correct. A neighbour of mine placed some large stones on the grass verge outside their house to stop people parking there. The verge then became overgrown as the council stopped cutting it so the rocks became invisible in the long grass. Friend of mine in the dark when visiting went to park there and damaged their car. I informed the council telling them if they weren't removed from their verge any future damage would be their responsibility. They were gone in a week and not been replaced by neighbour so assume they were told not to. -------------------- Diesel, the fuel of the future......
Roverboy 2 Apcoa 0 |
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Sat, 28 Dec 2019 - 23:59
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 8 Jul 2019 Member No.: 104,651 |
This is what I propose to send next. Thank you to those that privately helped with the draft.
This post has been edited by Silas M: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 - 00:02
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Sun, 29 Dec 2019 - 01:23
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 195 Joined: 4 Mar 2014 Member No.: 69,189 |
I can't find any fault with it. Go for it.
This post has been edited by Wretched Rectum: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 - 18:11 |
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Thu, 2 Jan 2020 - 23:53
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#40
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Member Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 8 Jul 2019 Member No.: 104,651 |
OK I've sent it.
This post has been edited by Silas M: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 - 13:03 |
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