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NTO on PCN now received for parking in permit area with obscured sign
what me?
post Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 01:47
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Hi, thanks as usual for all your excellent help on here.

When I was surprised to find a parking ticket on my car I hand delivered the following letter to SOuthend COuncil on the last available day, did not hear back on it, just received a Notification to Owner recently. I think my letter outlines my case:

Parking Management Section

Southend on Sea Borough Council

PO Box 4436

Southend on Sea

Essex

SS2 6YN

Wednesday 10 October 2018



RE: PCN Number served on 26/09/2018




VEHICLE REGISTRATION:



CHALLENGING THE ABOVE PCN



Dear Sir/Madam,



I wish to contend the penalty charge notice above because I believe it is invalid and should therefore be cancelled.



I have parked in that street a many times over the years as it was always free parking. Normally however it is full up. I was surprised to see spaces down there as I drove down the road that day and so looked on the ground markings, there were none (as backed up by your photos of the incident), therefore I believed it still to be free and parked there as usual. When I returned I found a parking ticket on my car, my first thought someone else must have put there’s onto my windscreen, but no it was for me. I looked around in surprise as I could not see any lines or any sign nearby. Only after closer examination did I find the sign hiding behind the foliage of a tree as you can see in the included photo. This is the view from the road that the driver sees not the up close pointing up at it from the base photo of your traffic warden and is not acceptable.





The PCN is therefore invalid as the contravention did not occur due to lack of road markings, Under the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2002 there should be a markings delineating a bay as per diagram 1028.4. 





Signage should be clear and unobstructed, as for example pointed out by the traffic signs manual chapter 3, 1.31; “Where it seems a sign is not being noticed by drivers, it should be checked to ensure it is well-sited, not obscured by vegetation or other obstructions, and is of the appropriate size and in good condition”





I would be grateful therefore if you could confirm the PCN is cancelled so I don’t have to spend more of my valuable time researching an unfair and prejudicial penalty.

Here's the parking ticket:





I know I have to upload the NTO yet, first of all want to see if the front of this PCN comes out ok. By the way I live down a street with permit parking and that permit is permanently in my car window - hence the contravention code chosen.

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post Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 01:47
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DancingDad
post Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 07:46
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Ok so far.
Can we see the sign please.
And is this the street ?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5347915,0...3312!8i6656
Though I fear streetview is not much use given that this seems to be some sort of new or temporary restriction.
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Neil B
post Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 09:31
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Just a wild guess. This?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5350998,0...3312!8i6656


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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DancingDad
post Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 09:47
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 09:31) *


Not much use like that is it biggrin.gif
I was (an am) expecting a Resident Parking Zone sign but where, dunno ?
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hcandersen
post Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 10:33
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I hand delivered the following letter to SOuthend COuncil on the last available day,


As we're in the season I can write....oh no you didn't. You missed the 14-day discount period because day 1 is the day of service therefore day 14 was 9 October.

Doh.

And did you include your name and address?

And the NTO date ??? and therefore you have until ?? to submit reps.

Let's establish these parameters.
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cp8759
post Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 11:25
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We need to see the council pictures, otherwise we're just wasting time. Either the council pictures include prima facie evidence of a contravention, or they don't.


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what me?
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 09:53
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Yes that is the street as I put in my appeal have been parking there for years and was caught unaware as the parking restriction is obvioulsy new, googlestreetview is from may 2017 I believe and is not on that as you can see.







Will post photos next.

Thanks for all your help so far

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hcandersen
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 10:14
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You have until 29 Nov to make reps.

There are two aspects to this: facts as regards the contravention and procedure.

As regards the latter:
Did you include your name and address in your challenge?

This is their policy:
https://www.southend.gov.uk/info/100011/par...t_parking_fines

They reply in writing to all challenges.

And yet you suggest you did not receive a reply.

Why?

For example, if you didn't give an address, then that's your problem ( NB. note their reference to 'you' on their website, this is nonsense. The owner gets the 'reminder' (how quaint) not the person who challenged) because although you were also the owner they would not track back and say aha, you know that reply we couldn't send for want of an address, well the owner's the same person, shall we snd it now?

But if you gave an address and did not receive a response and if this would have offered the discount then the procedural grounds of 'penalty exceeded ...in the circumstances of the case' apply.

Summary:
Do not pooh-pooh procedure, it's often the only prospect of a positive outcome.
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Neil B
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 11:17
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QUOTE (what me? @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 01:47) *
(as backed up by your photos of the incident)---------------- Only after closer examination did I find the sign hiding behind the foliage of a tree as you can see in the included photo. This is the view from the road that the driver sees not the up close pointing up at it from the base photo of your traffic warden and is not acceptable.

Where these pics you refer to?

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 10:14) *
But if you gave an address and did not receive a response and if this would have offered the discount then the procedural grounds of 'penalty exceeded ...in the circumstances of the case' apply.

No, as you've already rightly pointed out the challenge was late.

I'm curious exactly where it was 'hand delivered' and doubting the enforcement team ever saw it?

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 09:47) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 09:31) *


Not much use like that is it biggrin.gif
I was (an am) expecting a Resident Parking Zone sign but where, dunno ?

I think my link shows a wonky PPA sign. Right size, shape and position.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 11:18


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 11:45
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No, as you've already rightly pointed out the challenge was late.


No, it was late as regards automatic entitlement to 50% discount, but the policy (of obligating the council to giving a written response) applies to all submissions and is not limited to those made within 14 days.


I'm curious exactly where it was 'hand delivered' and doubting the enforcement team ever saw it?


The PCN gives written submissions as an option. Providing the OP used the specified address, then handing in is perfectly acceptable even if that office was not PO Box 5539......... which begs the question.....

.....OP, your post gives PO Box 4439! A mistype or what?

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 21:59
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cp8759
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 17:58
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still waiting for council pictures....

Also upload the PCN in full, including the back. Use imgur.com if you run out of space.


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what me?
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 18:58
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It was hand delivered to a member of staff who took it from me at Southend COuncil Offices as there was no one behind the reception desk (coming upto 6pm was surprised they were open) but was happy to take it from me. Hopefully he put it in the right pigeon hole. YEs the letter would have had my address, email and mobile number on.

Now photos, first the councils.

By the way I don't understand what you mean by posting the full PCN, I thought i had just obscured how the FAQ tells you too before loading on here.




Alas I cannot post my one of the obscured view of the sign at the moment as tinypic seems to be down and the attachment is too large.

THe council have several of mine, you can see three on the bottom of the NTO plus the two I have just posted, their picture of the sign and another of my car which clearly shows there are no road markings.
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Longtime Lurker
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 20:57
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At the risk of coming across as condescending... it's the "including the back" part you've not done.
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cp8759
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 21:15
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use imgbb.com or imgur.com, tinypic is a bit pants. Also the only part of the PCN you should redact is your name, address and number plate, the rest of the information is neither personal nor sensitive.


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hcandersen
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 22:05
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And you mistranscription of the PO Box No. is what? An error, or did you have the wrong PO Box No. on your envelope?

And in combination with 'Hopefully he put it in the right pigeon hole', your account is beginning to sound less positive than your opening post implied.
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what me?
post Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 01:40
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I handed my appeal in at the council offices where they are delivered too, but as i haven't heard back on it my pigeonhole statement is pure conjecture. I handed it to two members of staff chatting in front of the reception desk which wasnt manned at the time but they were happy to take it for me.

The above photo was taken at the time of me dfiscovering the parking ticket followed by me discovering the sign and thinking no wonder i didn't see it.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 07:39
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You have still not answered my question..

Your opening post refers to PO Box 4436

The PCN requires written challenges to be addressed to PO Box 5536

Typo in your post or did you actually wrongly address the envelope?

I presume envelope, but this is conjecture on my part because you appear to have posted the text of the letter but without any indication as to what address was put on the envelope.
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cp8759
post Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 13:56
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We still haven't seen the PCN or the council photos. If you don't share these with us we can't give you any meaningful advice.


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Neil B
post Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 14:57
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PCN is in the opening post but Council pics and a readable size awaited.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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what me?
post Sat, 24 Nov 2018 - 14:54
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First well spotted on the PO box, that maybe why I didn't get a reply, as it was saved from last time I had to appeal, just reused the letter template, didn't realise the PO Box changes.

Secondly the PCN is on the first post, I can click on it and read it ok, the reason I blacked various bits out was this guidance on this websites FAQ telling me too:

Step 2: Decide what details you need to remove

When asked to post a scan of a document you will usually be advised to "wash" or "scrub" it. What this means is that before you post it you should remove any details that would enable whoever issued the document to connect it to you. The reason is fairly obvious: posts in internet forums can be viewed by anyone, including people (e.g. the police, "safety camera" partnerships, private parking companies, councils) who you may not want to read posts discussing your options, what you did (or didn't) do, and what action you intend to take!

Peoples' initial reaction is often that this is simple - remove details like your name, address, registration mark and and driving licence number and the job's done. However the person or organisation issuing the document has all the information about it that you do; can they fill in the blanks using that knowledge? You need to consider a lot more than those obvious details, including:

SO removed my details, details of the car and the officer number I believe. As from previous experience you want the times and the road, which means I am trackable if they really wanted to, but there is a chance of more than one officer scanning that road so remove them just in case.

Thirdly: PO box, good spot, reused an old letter template from last time I disputed a fine. Didn't realise the PO box number changed.

Fourthly I have already posted council photos, firstly on the bottom of the NTO they show three of their photos (blocked out my permit disk details and camera stamp on these). You just have to click onto the page to enlarge to see them, however looking at it again can see it is blurred making it hard to read so guessing this is the one people would like reloaded. Then post 12 I believe I posted other council photos.

Fifthly from my last appeal which I won thanks to Roys help on here I should be able to re-use this bit again, just altering the contravention text:

The main TRO covering this area is:


The Southend-on-Sea Borough Council (Various Roads) (Stopping, Waiting, Loading and Unloading Prohibitions and Restrictions, Parking Places and Permit Parking Zones) (Consolidation) Order 2016



The contravention I have been given relates to “Parked without clearly displaying a valid permit where required”



Article 20(1) of the above order relates to display of permits. It then goes on to say permits should be correctly displayed as per Article 52 which is not correct it should be Article 51. Therefore if the TRO cannot specify the method of permit display how can contraventions relating to display or otherwise be legally enforced. In this respect the TRO is invalid, and cannot sustain the contravention given on the PCNs.


I am aware I have to get the letter in this coming week.
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