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PCN - continuous contravention again.
rosturra
post Tue, 1 May 2018 - 11:32
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Hi all;

I have a valid parking permit for Greenwich. In January I found I had two PCNs; which puzzled me. Then realised that the permit was obscured by a National Trust parking permit sticker - which had slipped into the pass holder.

Bang to rights. But I was obviously annoyed with myself that I got two PCNs - when I had a valid permit! (It was bad enough last year - when I let the permit lapse! But that's another story).
The second PCN was a day later - but within 24 hours of first one. The car had not moved in the interim.

I immediately informally appealed; hoping for discretion only.
On the basis that I had a valid permit. It was an unforeseen circumstance. I thought the permit was displayed correctly when I left the car.
No benefit was gained (by not paying for parking). Apologies for inconvenience. I fully intend to be more careful in the future. yada yada.

For the second one I repeated the same reps. but added the gvt advice that I shouldn't get two tickets for the same contravention within 24 hours.

Some thoughts.


I have seen other cases where the council give discretion when someone has failed to display an otherwise valid ticket correctly. Usually for car-parking tickets; and first time error only.
However I can't find any notes on discretion for my error.

Last year the council were very tardy in responding to my informal appeal. and it was this very tardiness which led to my success at tribunal, rather than my reps (which were dismissed).
So it's definitely worth an appeal in the hope of similar inefficiency!

Now in my previous tribunal, it was ruled that I could not use continuous contravention as a grounds for appeal. As the two parking restricted periods (09:00-05:00) were separated - so two distinct contraventions.

In this instance - the two PCNs are on different days - but within 24 hours.

I believe the advice is that councils should not pursue the second PCN if within 24 hours of another ticket for the same contravention.

Now this seems a little ambiguous to me and gives me hope.

The contravention is code 12.

Could I argue that the "same contravention" refers generically to the code 12 contravention. So I have grounds for appeal (I had two tickets for the same type of contravention within 24 hours) .

Or would it be argued that a "same contravention" could only be with another PCN in the same contravention period. Contravention A is for day 1 09:00-17:00. Contravention B is for day 2 09:00-17:00.


I will post up PCN - for your perusal - in the next post.

Thanks all























I had an almost exact same issue last year.
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post Tue, 1 May 2018 - 11:32
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cp8759
post Fri, 25 May 2018 - 10:08
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 25 May 2018 - 10:47) *
The letters say the council has policies for PCN mitigation - we must see these. CP may have to issue an FOI request citing these letters.

Done, will post the outcome.


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rosturra
post Fri, 25 May 2018 - 11:22
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I spoke to the council today.

They said that no discretion policy was available on the website.

When they looked at my case - they could see no evidence of my permit. (I had attached photographs).

Anyway they said to email - and it would be considered immediately.

I am considering this:

-----------------------------------------

Sir

PCN xxx
PCN XXX
Permit number xxx


Photo of permit attached.

Photo of how national trust pass obscured pass attached. [ Mock up - not taken at time of contravention ]


In a phone conversation, I was advised to email today, and that this would be considered.

I would beg a quick reply – as my 14 day discount period is nearing an end and I need to consider whether to appeal and risk losing discount.

Background.

I have a valid parking permit for Greenwich. In January I found I had two PCNs; which puzzled me.
Then I realised that the permit was obscured by a National Trust parking sticker - which had slipped into the pass holder.

I appreciate that the permit was obscured. This is not in dispute.

I am requesting that discretion be offered, given that I had a valid permit, which I believed to be correctly displayed at the time.

I gained no financial benefit from this situation. For example by not paying for parking.
And I didn’t prevent a genuine resident from parking near their property.

The second PCN was issued less than 24 hours after the first.
This seemed a little unfair; as it was for the same contravention.

I have been unable to find any Parking Policy on mitigation on the Greenwich Council website.

However I have noted that other councils, allow discretion (for example in council run car parks) when a valid ticket is not displayed (usually for a first time offence) when this is challenged and verified. My case seems equivalent to this.

With respect to the second PCN. I note the government guidelines.

Operational Guidance to Local Authorities: Parking Policy and Enforcement Traffic Management Act 2004

8.46 If two or more PCNs are issued within 24 hours for the same contravention,
that is, to a vehicle that has not been moved, it is current practice to cancel
the second PCN.


I informally appealed these PCNs, back in January. I received rejection letters on 16 May.

When I spoke to parking services today, I did not take the gentleman’s name, but I was told that my Permit Holder information was not attached to case.

Find attached photo of Permit. And a photo of how the National Trust parking ticket obscured the Permit.

I would beg that you reconsider my appeal to apply discretion on these PCNs under your fairness guidance.

This was, after all, an honest slip with a valid residents permit.










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rosturra
post Fri, 25 May 2018 - 11:45
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 25 May 2018 - 10:21) *
You posted:

I missed the 14-day discount.....

and in your reps stated:

Hopefully your officer will have photographed the pass when generating ticket

So, didn't you check their photos in the 14 days, or aren't there any? We've not seen any.


The fact that the pass was obscured is not in dispute.


QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 25 May 2018 - 10:21) *
Can we get back to the basics pl.

GSV; photos; their replies.

And, subject to their replies, if it were me I'd go for the lip service they pay to the SoS's Stat Guidance, paras. 10.7 and 10.8 in particular, in their so-called Parking Strategy.

Put it to them. This delay is unacceptable and it is for THEM to justify. It is not within their discretion whether to have clear policies to guide officers within the enforcement authority on the exercise of the council's power of discretion - they must.


GSV

Councils replies in a previous post.

I'll wait for response to today's "friendly" email - before I hit them with more strongly worded challenges.

This post has been edited by rosturra: Fri, 25 May 2018 - 11:48
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stamfordman
post Fri, 25 May 2018 - 11:50
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I would add something along the lines of:

I understand that government fairness guidelines to councils are intended* to take into account honest mistakes by residents possessing a valid permit and where there is no intent to avoid paying a parking charge, and indeed where parking was covered by the permit at the time.

* corrected

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 25 May 2018 - 11:55
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rosturra
post Fri, 25 May 2018 - 11:52
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I intended to wait for comments on my email; before sending.

But given it is an bank holiday weekend - as I don't have much time to get a discount.

I am sending it now - so they have a chance to read and respond this afternoon.



Update. I have just seen Stamfordman's post, and will incorporate. Thanks.

This post has been edited by rosturra: Fri, 25 May 2018 - 11:54
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rosturra
post Fri, 25 May 2018 - 16:21
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Just got a reply from Greenwich Parking Services:

-----------------------

In order to consider representations against the issue of this Penalty Charge Notice, please confirm the full name and address of the registered keeper of the vehicle as shown on DVLA records.
The information as requested must be supplied as soon as possible, failure to do so may result in losing the option to pay at the discount and the notice will continue to progress.

-----------------------


Which seems a bit random - unless they are trying to verify my right to a permit at all!

I responded with a scan of my Vehicle V5C document, to prevent any further delays.
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rosturra
post Tue, 29 May 2018 - 13:47
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I have just realised that the rejection letter from the council (dated 16/05/2018 - attached further up) has offered me the discount as follows:

"If payment is received within 14 days from the date of this letter, the discounted rate will be accepted...."

Should this not be from the date of when this letter is served? (ie an extra 48 hours to allow for postage)

The slight complication is that I am sure that I missed the 14 day to appeal. So Greenwich council need not offer me a discount at all.

Also the 14 days ends today!
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 29 May 2018 - 13:56
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QUOTE (rosturra @ Tue, 29 May 2018 - 14:47) *
I have just realised that the rejection letter from the council (dated 16/05/2018 - attached further up) has offered me the discount as follows:

"If payment is received within 14 days from the date of this letter, the discounted rate will be accepted...."

Should this not be from the date of when this letter is served? (ie an extra 48 hours to allow for postage)

The slight complication is that I am sure that I missed the 14 day to appeal. So Greenwich council need not offer me a discount at all.

Also the 14 days ends today!


No the re offering of the discount is discretionary and they can stipulate any period they want


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rosturra
post Tue, 29 May 2018 - 14:26
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Thanks. I have emailed council today - and will phone later if no response.
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rosturra
post Tue, 29 May 2018 - 15:35
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Spoke to council. Got a bit of a runaround.

Eventually I spoke to someone.

With respect to discretion: I was told that no discretion given to me as my permit was for two cars.

## To explain. If you have two cars, then Greenwich will allow you to share one permit shared between the two cars. But can only be used on one car at a time.
## Obviously their concern in abuse. Where one car has the permit in screen - and the other parked without it.

Which was an answer at least.

When I asked about the continuous contravention. Initially said that two tickets valid as on different days. Then when I challenged that it was within 24 hours, they just said they wouldn't discuss it, that I could go through formal appeals.

I got an extra few days added to the discount period.
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stamfordman
post Tue, 29 May 2018 - 15:50
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QUOTE (rosturra @ Tue, 29 May 2018 - 16:35) *
With respect to discretion: I was told that no discretion given to me as my permit was for two cars.

## To explain. If you have two cars, then Greenwich will allow you to share one permit shared between the two cars. But can only be used on one car at a time.
## Obviously their concern in abuse. Where one car has the permit in screen - and the other parked without it.



That's bonkers - why would you chance leaving a car parked without a permit? you can hardly keep on making appeals giants PCNs on this basis. But have they given discretion to you on this before?

Where do you park the other car?
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rosturra
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 08:54
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I live and work in London. (Well I've been made redundant - but generally)
My Wife lives and works on the south coast.

We split out time between the two locations.

Both cars are registered to me. In practice, my wife uses one and I the other.
So normally the wife's car lives on the south coast, except when she comes up for a weekend.
Then I make sure the car, without permit, is parked when parking is permitted on a weekend. Which is no great inconvenience.

It only becomes a chore when she is in London midweek. Then I have to park one car further afield with free on-street parking.
But often when we are both in London, then we leave one car on the south coast.

I could get a permit for both cars - but this would mean paying £95 twice.
One can obtain a shared permit at no additional cost.


I have never asked for discretion before.

I can realise that this system is open to abuse. For example one could 'lose' one permit, and ask for a duplicate. Then use both the old and new one, on both cars.
In fact when I first applied for a two-car permit (in person at town hall), I was told that permits would have to be signed for when posted out,
to prevent claims that permit was not received and a duplicate requested. Of course my renewal permit was posted out with regular first class post!






This post has been edited by rosturra: Wed, 30 May 2018 - 09:01
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rosturra
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 14:38
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I received a rather snotty email from Greenwich Council today.

--------------------------------------------
Thank you for your email and further to your telephone conversation with my colleague, please find attached copies letters sent today by post advising of your options.

All the information you have provided has been investigated and you have received letters previously with our decision not to cancel the Penalty Charge Notices. It would be helpful if you do not call us about these PCN's as, generally, we only respond in writing to appeals against Penalty Charge Notices and we are not able to change our decision at this stage. But your options are listed below as detailed in our earlier letter;

You may pay the discounted amount of £65.00 until 4th June 2018 or £130.00 until 13th June 2018 which is a 28 day period from the date of our letter advising that your appeals were not successful.
--------------------------------------------


I am not at home - so not able to redact and attach copies of letters. But the text was identical for both PCNs and reads:

----------------------
We are in receipt of your communication regarding the above notice and have noted your comments.

Your initial appeal was investigated and given full consideration.
The council then wrote to you with their decision explaining the reasons why the penalty would not be waived.

A formal appeals process is set out... etc.

The council will only reconsider their decision on their receipt of the completed NTO.

-------------------------

So no consideration of discretion - or continuous contravention.


So I have a week to ponder and still get the discount.
















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stamfordman
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 15:33
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I would be steaming mad at the parking dept for this - they are basically labelling you an untrustworthy resident on the same sort of level as one of their serial offenders.

You may not be able to escape payment but I would be writing to the council cabinet member responsible, your councillor and head of parking saying this is not how you would be expected to be treated as presumably a council tax payer and resident of x years.
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rosturra
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 14:11
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Well. I was a bit of an idiot and missed the deadline to get the discounted charge! I thought I had until the 6th, went away for the weekend, try to pay on the 5th, to find that period ended on the 4th.

So that has cost me £130!

Given I have lost the discount I may as well keep appeal alive. If only in the hope that Greenwich are late issuing the NTO.

Should I pay the first one and only continue with the second one?


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cp8759
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 16:13
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QUOTE (rosturra @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 15:11) *
Well. I was a bit of an idiot and missed the deadline to get the discounted charge! I thought I had until the 6th, went away for the weekend, try to pay on the 5th, to find that period ended on the 4th.

So that has cost me £130!

Given I have lost the discount I may as well keep appeal alive. If only in the hope that Greenwich are late issuing the NTO.

Should I pay the first one and only continue with the second one?

If you've lost the discount there's no reason to pay promptly, even if you ultimately have to pay it you'll have some time to put the money aside.


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DancingDad
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 16:39
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If you have missed discount, no point in paying now.
Wait for the NTO, challenge again, then if needs be, appeal..... will cost no more and at worst, give you chance to put some aside to pay at the end.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 16:55
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To be clear is this 2 PCNs with £260 now at stake?

Also, CP pit in a request for their policy.
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cp8759
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 17:14
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Just to confirm, Greenwich have said they'll reply to the FOI request by 25 June 2018


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rosturra
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 21:33
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 17:55) *
To be clear is this 2 PCNs with £260 now at stake?

Also, CP pit in a request for their policy.


Yes

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 18:14) *
Just to confirm, Greenwich have said they'll reply to the FOI request by 25 June 2018


Thank you.
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