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A Morrison's Car Park that's Not All it Seems
Metal Flamingo
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 10:46
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Hi Everyone,

I'm looking for some advice about a parking ticket I received while shopping in the Morrisons store in Royston, North Herts.

Though the Car Park is clearly next to the Morrisons, has Morrisons trolley parks in & to all intent & purposes looks like every other Morrisons car park in the country it's not and I received a parking ticket from the council for not buying a ticket.

On the wall opposite the entrance I used, there is a small sign saying pay at meter and in the other half of the car park there is a meter for paying but it's obscured by a large overgrown bush and I didn't see either it or the little sign.

I was using the car park for the first time & genuinely thought it was for the use of Morrisons customers.

Can anyone here suggest a legal route and opinion on whether contesting the charge £25/£50 is a good idea?



This post has been edited by Metal Flamingo: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 12:26
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stamfordman
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 11:03
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Post the direct links and also the PCN and give a google street view link.
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Metal Flamingo
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 11:55
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Thanks Stamford. Hope this helps. I parked where the red car on the left against the wall is in the Entrance image

PCN code is 83

Morrisons

Entrance

Sat

This post has been edited by Metal Flamingo: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 11:57
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Metal Flamingo
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 12:05
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Stamford I've just been looking at the Entrance image again. There's clearly no sign at the entrance saying this is a pay car park and the pay sign to the right next to the other red car is buried in that bush and can't be seen from where I parked to the lleft. You can also see the 2 Morrison's trolley parks. Seems very unreasonable to me
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stamfordman
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 12:10
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We like to see a pic of all of the PCN.

Also have a look on council site for council pics.

Bear in mind GSV is from October but no entrance sign to car park looks to me like they can't sustain a PCN there. is there any sign with car park terms?

Someone will no doubt look up the order for this car park.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 12:18
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Metal Flamingo
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 12:24
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Here is the image of the PCN & a photo of the position the car was in when parked and the trolley park that fooled me.

There does seem to be a sign in the other half of the car park explaining something but I didn't see it or read it. it certainly wasn't obvious

https://ibb.co/CbC9s1q

https://ibb.co/M9PZZg0
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 12:25
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This appears to be the Off Street Parking Places Order:-

https://www.north-herts.gov.uk/sites/northh...ay%202015_0.pdf

Nothing wrong with a business allowing the Council to use its car park as a public off street CP. However that is the key issue to my mind. The Order states "an "Approved Outlet" means a business or organisation that has permission in writing from the Council to issue Pay and Display tickets to vehicle owners wishing to park in the parking place". That is not the same as a car park being provided by the Council either using its own land or leasing someone else's land according to the legislation.

Otherwise the OP is bang to rights, noticeboard or not.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 12:27
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cp8759
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 13:48
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 12:25) *
That is not the same as a car park being provided by the Council either using its own land or leasing someone else's land according to the legislation.

What's the difference?

Metal Flamingo, show us the back of the PCN in full.


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Metal Flamingo
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 13:59
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Cheers Guys

https://ibb.co/10jsYcm
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cp8759
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 14:19
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Well there's a minor flaw on the back of the PCN, it says informal challenges will only be considered if they are received before the end of the 28 day period, this is obviously wrong. It implies that if you make representations after 28 days but before the council issue a Notice to Owner, the representations will not be considered, this is contrary to the duty to consider under all representations made before the Notice to Owner is served.

Here are the council pics:













Realistically you need to go back to the car park and take pictures of the view form where your car was, if you want any hope of succeeding on the basis of inadequate signage.


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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 14:50
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 13:48) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 12:25) *
That is not the same as a car park being provided by the Council either using its own land or leasing someone else's land according to the legislation.

What's the difference?

Metal Flamingo, show us the back of the PCN in full.


The "difference" is that the Order relating to which vehicles can use the CP, other conditions and payment terms, can only arise under Sect 35 of the RTRA 1984 if the Council has provided the CP, is leasing it or has made arrangements under Sect 33(4) of the Act for third party involvement.:-

33(4)A local authority may, on such terms as they think fit,—
(a)let land on which they could erect or adapt a building for the purpose of providing an off-street parking place with a view to its being provided by some other person, or
(b)arrange with any person for him to provide such a parking place on any land of which he is the owner or in which he has an interest.

Not the same as:-
"Approved Outlet" means a business or organisation that has permission in writing from the Council to issue Pay and Display tickets to vehicle owners wishing to park in the parking place.

Anyhow that follows a big assumption, on my part, that Morrisons have been involved.

BTW which CP is mentioned in the Order? There are two on each side of Prince's Mews both of which have ticket machines.

Mick
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cp8759
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 15:06
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I think Approved Outlet is nothing more than a reseller of pay& display tickets, a bit like those "voucher zones" where you buy a voucher for on-street parking from a local shop, I don't see how this has any real impact.


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Metal Flamingo
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 15:49
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Realistically you need to go back to the car park and take pictures of the view form where your car was, if you want any hope of succeeding on the basis of inadequate signage.
[/quote]

Hi CP8759,

I took a photo at the time it's here:


https://ibb.co/M9PZZg0

if you look really closely to the right of the trolley park behind the blue car and hidden in that bush you might just be able to make out what now looks like the payment machine

Below is the Google maps image of the entrance with no signs, though you can make out the machine with sign buried inside the bush that was if anything more over grown on the day in question.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.0475963,-0....3312!8i6656

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DancingDad
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 16:21
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I've seen inadequate signage won with better signs then seem to be here.
Where are the "Have you Paid and Displayed" signs?
The Entrance sign saying Pay and Display?
Not to mention that the three P&D machines seem to be tucked away in corners.
Stealth parking enforcement that would make many private parking car parks with hidden signage look good.
I suspect the T&C board is the green backed one just on the right opposite Morrison's entrance.
BTW, the P&D machine that the CEO photographed is the one in the other part of the car park, across the road.
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stamfordman
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 17:04
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Apart from the lack of signage it's disguised as a supermarket car park with the trolley stores. I think the OP can justly feel misled. For the extra £25, this is probably worth going all the way.
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Metal Flamingo
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 16:04
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 17:04) *
Apart from the lack of signage it's disguised as a supermarket car park with the trolley stores. I think the OP can justly feel misled. For the extra £25, this is probably worth going all the way.


OK. Thanks Stamford and the rest of you. I think I followed about half of it.

Do I appeal and if so what grounds should I use do you think?
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stamfordman
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 17:14
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Draft a challenge and post here.

As DD says the terms board the CEO included in pics seems to be across the road in another car park. Signage is woeful.
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DancingDad
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 23:14
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 17:14) *
Draft a challenge and post here.

As DD says the terms board the CEO included in pics seems to be across the road in another car park. ...


No, the machine and its tariff board were in what to all intents was another car park (actually same one but across the road)
Streetview seems to show similar tariff boards by the two machines within the car park OP was in.
The T&C board seems to be the big green board opposite Morrison's entrance.
But we cannot see the terms on it and TBH, it could be an advertising hoarding.


If OP can return to the car park, you need pictures from where you parked the car, covering 180 degree view.
This will give an adjudicator opportunity to see the view from a driver's perspective.
Also need a clean photo of the T&C board...or at least what is on the front of that green sign.
Within those photos, the machine across the street that the CEO pictured will likely be the only clearly visible machine...… No way in the world would I cross a road to what looks like another car park to buy a ticket from that machine.


There is no legislation that specifically says what signs can be used or should be used in a car park.
But this does not remove the normal duty on a council to place signage that is adequate to inform drivers that restrictions exist.
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Metal Flamingo
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 10:20
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Hi Everyone,

Below is my submission for appeal. Unfortunately I live 20 miles from the car park so won't be popping by just yet to collect more photos though I wouldn't rule this out if my appeal fails. Any suggestions for improvement would be welcome.

Thanks,

Metal


Dear Sir/Madam,

I write to appeal a parking ticket PCN # HC5035874A
.
My appeal is based on a number of issues around the unfairness of the fine.

The ticket is clearly unfair as the car park is poorly signposted. In fact the entrance I used has no signs at all explaining it’s a council pay car park.

Quite to the contrary it has trolley parks filled with Morrisons super market trolleys misleadingly making it look like a normal free – so long as you shop there - super market carpark. Consequently, when I parked in the car park to use Morrisons I was shocked to return to a ticket. I subsequently looked around to see the only tiny sign in the entrance side of the car park is on a wall and reads pay at meter. A sign that was obscured by a window cleaning van when I parked.

To further confuse the information required by any driver to know this wasn’t a Morrisons car park the Pay & Display machine is quite literally buried in a bush over hanging from a private garden adjacent to the car park.

I’ve had look at the car park and the only other sign seems to be in the other half of the car park and faces away from the direction of anyone leaving the car park. Only people returning to their cars might, at a push, see any signs though I had no idea until I return to my vehicle.

I do not live in the area and don’t use that supermarket.

My grounds for appeal there for are:
1. The lack of signage is clearly misleading and unfair
2. The signage at the entrance being non-existent doesn't allow adequate information for the user to know it’s a fee paying car park
3. The trolleys & Trolley Parks clearly mark a supermarket car park right next to a supermarket for those trolleys.
4. The half of the car park I parked in had one small inadequate sign that was obscured by a van
5. The ticket machine & it’s sign was obscured by an overgrown bush that has been left by the car park owner to hide the machine and accompanying sign
6. I shopped at the Morrisons store and have the receipt
7. This was an honest mistake
8. I don’t live in the area and was not aware this was not a Morrisons Car Park
9. This my first offence
10. There is no sign facing into the half of the car park I used informing anyone leaving they must pay to use the car park

Further, I have a witness to everything I have said.

I would also like to know how I may go about submitting a freedom of information request to find out how many other people have been misled by the clearly unfair car park. Also, if other people have been confused how quickly and what action was taken by the council to remedy the unfair and misleading signage issue in the car park?

Regards,

Metal F

This post has been edited by Metal Flamingo: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 10:43
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DancingDad
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 11:12
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Third line, delete the word council, end of the day it doesn't matter who requires payment, there should be clear signs.

Final paragraph re FOI request, delete.
Replace with something like..." This was an honest error, brought about by lack of signage, even if you consider that the signage is clear, please exercise your discretion to cancel.


The FOI request make anyway but without referencing the PCN.
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