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PCN - Stopping in a Yellow Box, Is this an appealable PCN for stopping in a yellow box?
RobAbb
post Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 12:25
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Hi all,

Can someone with the knowledge give me an ojbective view on this PCN please; could I reasonably appeal this?

I am the driver of the Volvo that comes through the lights on the left, stops (unknown to me but clear on the video that my front wheels were in the yellow box) and then proceeds straight through the box junction roughly 10 seconds later when it's clear. This is in Hammersmith, under the flyover and I'm proceeding to turn left to go southbound on the fulham palace road.

My argument is that I felt I stopped before entering the box juction and I was not preventing any traffic. I can fully see on the video that the front half of the car was stopped inside the yellow box though. My intent was not to enter the box until I had a clear route through it. It seems pretty harsh to me but I don't konw the law that well, especially as you can see other cars in the video that have clearly stoped fully inside the far end of the box. The operator also seems to try to zoom in on them but can't get a full image of the number plates so goes for my car instead.

Link to the video

thanks,

Rob
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post Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 12:25
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 11:11
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Did you send my draft verbatim, or did you add, subtract or alter anything? If my draft they have completely failed to consider any ground, even going so far as to misstate the law as regards the right turn exemption

I would take this to adjudication on that alone


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cp8759
post Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 19:08
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 11:11) *
Did you send my draft verbatim, or did you add, subtract or alter anything? If my draft they have completely failed to consider any ground, even going so far as to misstate the law as regards the right turn exemption

I would take this to adjudication on that alone

+1


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RobAbb
post Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 19:20
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 11:11) *
Did you send my draft verbatim, or did you add, subtract or alter anything? If my draft they have completely failed to consider any ground, even going so far as to misstate the law as regards the right turn exemption

I would take this to adjudication on that alone


unfortunately I didn't. I'm afraid I got nervous with the approaching deadline and sent them the draft I'd written myself.

Is it still worth appealing? Like I said, I'm minded to anyway; because of the prior adjudication as well as the published H&F guidcance.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 20:37
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post what you did send


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RobAbb
post Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 19:07
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Hi, here's what I sent:

I am writing to formally challenge the above referenced Penalty Charge Notice.

On 28 January 2019 my vehicle was issued with a Penalty Charge Notice for the reason for entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited on 20 January 2019.

My challenge is on the basis that the contravention did not occur, for the following grounds.

My vehicle approached the junction following moving traffic. The video and photographs show that the markings of the yellow box are well worn, making it difficult to judge the edge of the box. My vehicle came to a halt partially inside the box junction, while vehicles further ahead were still moving, and stopped for 7 seconds due to an obstructed exit further ahead, not due to the presence of stationary vehicles directly in front my vehicle. Stationary vehicles in front is a requirement to be judged in contravention. I make reference to case 2180363971:

“Proceeding slowly across: 2180363971, 16 October 2018, adjudicator Edward Houghton, allowed—
On looking at the CCTV in this case I am not persuaded that a contravention is made out. The Council is required to prove that the vehicle had to stop within the junction as a result of the presence of a stationary vehicle. The Appellant’s vehicle enters the junction and pulls up in the mouth of the junction whilst the vehicle ahead is still moving. There was nothing to prevent the Appellant’s vehicle at that moment making further progress across the junction, and it did not have to stop at that point. Certainly if it had proceeded slowly the point might subsequently have been reached when it would have had to stop behind the then stationary vehicle ahead; but it seems equally possible that it might have been able to clear the junction following slowly behind the vehicle ahead which moves a few moments later. In any event the penalty cannot be demanded on the basis of a future contravention even if that were seen to be inevitable.”

The London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham has issued guidelines specifically in relation to Box Junction Enforcement, I quote point 9:

“On large type box junctions, cars and vans with less than 50% of their length over the box should have discretion applied if they are not an obstruction.”

The video and photographs show that less than 50% of my vehicle came to a full halt inside the box junction. They also show that my vehicle was not causing an obstruction.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 19:14
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Yes it is there was no consideration of your points you do not need to register your appeal before the 13th of march so don't go rushing in


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Mr Meldrew
post Sun, 24 Feb 2019 - 11:41
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If you are minded to continue, I understand from the reps that you relied on the video and photographic evidence and submitted, “The video and photographs show that the markings of the yellow box are well worn, making it difficult to judge the edge of the box.” Your first contention it seems was that you partly entered the badly maintained box unwittingly because you could not immediately make out the entrance. The relevant law is that subject to very limited exceptions, the yellow criss-cross marking conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. Clearly, those words required the authority to first prove that you, and not the worn out yellow criss-cross markings as has been claimed, had caused the alleged contravention. I cannot accept that the Notice of Rejection did so when taking into account the unashamedly stock content with not a hint of consideration of your reps drawing attention to the worn markings, or even whether they were substantially compliant with current legislation, and enforceable.

Your second contention, again with not a hint of consideration in the notice, was that having partly entered the box, there was no proof that your car had to stop due to the presence of stationary vehicles. The reason is, even if it could be said with certainty (it cannot) that if you had continued across the box and would eventually have had to stop your car behind a stationary vehicle on the far side, the penalty cannot be demanded based on a future contravention.

Section 1(7) of Schedule 1 of the London Local Authorities Act 2003 imposed a duty on the enforcement authority to consider your representations and you reasonably expected to be able to make an informed decision whether to settle the Penalty Charge Notice or to appeal; the Notice of Rejection failed to do either.


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I do tend to have a bee in my bonnet re failing to consider and fairness
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RobAbb
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 12:24
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 19:14) *
Yes it is there was no consideration of your points you do not need to register your appeal before the 13th of march so don't go rushing in


Thanks, yes. I admit I rushed in the first time. I won't do that again!

Responding to Mr Meldrew's comments: yes, I am now minded to continue an appeal especially since the reply I received didn't address the points made in the representations.

Can anyone advise me what to expect when I go to londontribunals.gov.uk ; i.e. what I will be required to submit, how to word things etc...?

thanks again for everyone's advice so far.

R
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 12:27
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Yes bump next week to remind me and i will draft an appeal


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RobAbb
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 15:09
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Bit late but here's the bump.

Thanks,

R
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 15:49
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QUOTE (RobAbb @ Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 15:09) *
Bit late but here's the bump.

Thanks,

R


You must register your appeal today. do so the grounds would be. there is no contravention of a prescribed order or a scheduled sign and that the penalty exceeds the amount in the circumstances of the case.

In the box for your evidence write full submissions to follow

once your appeal is registered you will be given a date by which you must file submissions. We/I will help you but we need more time than a few hours. keep on top of this


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RobAbb
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 16:09
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Gosh, thanks for pointing that out! I hadn't realised how quickly the time had gone.

I've lodged the appeal with those grounds and indicated the evidence will follow. I've selected a hearing date for the 17th April and the website says the evidence must be submitted by the prior week.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 18:34
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Rob

Attached is an appeal fill in the bits in red then its ready to go

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AtBHPhdJdppVrmQEd9a80QMh4wlC


just noticed a bit I missed. Change the name of the council I forgot

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 18:55


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RobAbb
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 11:49
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Thanks very much, that's great. I really appreaciate your help.

I've submitted both files (edited appeal) into evidence for the appeal. I'll let you konw next month what happens.

Fingers crossed I guess.
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RobAbb
post Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 09:53
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just to close this thread, and apologies for the time it's taken to post this, the appeal was allowed by the adjudicator.

The full notification is attached.
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