Hi All,
One of our vans got ticketed whilst unloading on non-restricted double yellow lines.
We appealed with supporting evidence but this got rejected because the van was near a junction.
Can anyone see anything incorrect about the council's letter before we pay?
Cheers.
Post up all the documents, every page and a Streetview location
Pretty certain this is nonsense as we've seen with recent cases of Crawley going after BB holders in this way. Obstruction can be pursued by police but not by council under the yellow line parking order. If they want to ban loading there then they can be they haven't, presumably.
As per above post PCN, all your challenge and their rejection, council pics, and a google street view.
Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.
Cheers guys,
I haven't got the copy of my first appeal to the council, but it basically stated that i was unloading and that there were no unloading restrictions in force. I also provided a job sheet supporting the unloading.
Here is the ticket, council picture and GSV :
https://ibb.co/VMWSP6Y
https://ibb.co/khb3W3q
https://ibb.co/Khdj0kN
https://www.instantstreetview.com/@50.372099,-4.116884,239.46h,-23.49p,1z
Observation time was 5 mins which further suggests that the corner location is nonsense - did driver see the CEO?
Sounds to me like you left van to attend to leak? Was van moved after loading? They could have rejected owing to no loading going on but may well have shot themselves in the foot with the obstruction.
What a crock of bull. The exemption applies end off. If you are guilty of an offence of causing an obstruction it is a police matter it does not nullify any exemption
Please post all the docs on an external hosting site such as imgur to make them easier to read. I cannot see you losing this and can see you getting costs awarded if the appeal is well drafted
OP has put on external PMB - just click on them.
No problem, here we go thank you for your help
https://ibb.co/DLjT0V5
https://ibb.co/SRdWJB8
Send this now To Mr Simpson
Dear Mr Simpson
reference PCN number xxxxxxxxxx
Thank you for your letter dated the 24th of May 2019 rejecting my challenge. You state that as I was unloading near to a junction that the TMA 2004 and the TSRGD 2016 disallows the exemption afforded to parking on a double yellow line for the purposes of loading/unloading.
In order that I may consider my position, please inform me of the relevant provision in both sets of regulations that sets out this revocation of the exemption in such circumstances.
Regards
Thank you so much!
Email sent!
Have you actually sent it?
If not, then wait.
yeh i emailed it straight away.
why whats up?
A matter of preference.
I would have included..
..your letter dated *** in which you acknowledge that I was engaged in loading etc. which is an exemption as regards the prevailing traffic order but that you have not accepted my representations for one or more of the following reasons:
1. The TMA and TSRGD 2016 disapply the exemption when a vehicle is parked 'on or near a pedestrian crossing or junction'
2. 'The vehicle is not causing an obstruction....
..and so on..
Draw out and shine the spotlight on their stupidity. It's all grist to the adjudicator's mill which would grind Mr Simpson. They'd be lucky to escape without an award of costs against them, in fact if you play this right and they're stupid enough to continue with a NTO/NOR I would virtually guarantee an award their response and reasoning is SOOOO bad. But you have to play them, a bit like anglng except here you'd be angling for costs
Too late now, but we could include in any formal reps.
Surely more than one the council pic!
OK thank you for your additional insight
i'll update if i need to reload the appeal gun!
Hi All,
The council have written and rejected the appeal.
I've linked their response - any help appreciated!
https://ibb.co/X85gp66
Long time lurker, but I'm pretty sure that claiming they are 'not willing to consider further challenges at this stage' is a Procedural Impropriety, as they should always consider further reps I thought.
Wait for further feedback, just in case I am wrong.....
You need to show us all of all the documents. When you get the NTO post that and one of us will help you write your representation
Personally I would write back again.
Dear Sirs
Ref PCN ???? Your Letter dated ????
Thanks for the further information but I am still struggling on ascertaining what cancels the general loading exemption on yellow lines relative to position near a junction.
I need full information so I may consider further options.
You kindly referred me to Traffic Management Act 2004, Schedule 7, Item 4(2)(a) and 4(2)(b) which I reproduce in full.
"(2)The offences are—
(a)an offence under section 64(3) of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976 (c. 57) of causing a vehicle to stop on part of a road appointed, or deemed to have been appointed, as a hackney carriage stand;
(b)an offence under section 5, 11, 16(1) or 16C of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (c. 27) (contravention of certain traffic orders) of contravening a prohibition or restriction on waiting, or loading or unloading, of vehicles;"
Could you explain what Hackney Carriage Stand was present or signed as you seem to be reliant on this?
Could you point out within Schedule 7(4)(2)(b) where distance from a corner is specified or the relevant legislation or Order which enables this section to be used?
Could you also specify which signs were present to show that the standard loading exemption was not allowed?
Many thanks for your continued efforts with this, I am sure you appreciate the need to be exact and to apply the correct legislation.
Yours....
Hugs and Kisses.
Up to you but being as they cite some legislation, I would call them on it now.
Thank you! I love this site
Will report back
Hi All,
The council are still playing hardball - what's next - wait for the NTO to arrive?
https://ibb.co/Tg9W9PG
OP, it is irritating that you leave off the tops and bottoms of letters, you must leave in all 4 corners.
For example, have the authority's replies come from the same person, who clearly has training needs?
You need to write to the Head of Parking and personalise this, plus aim for costs at adjudication if they're foolish enough to continue.
Are you the registered keeper?
Sorry - i've checked and the letters are coming from different members of staff each time.
is there anything i should write or word differently in the letter to the head of parking?
i'm not the registered keeper.
Who is the registered keeper - if it's your company then it will be straightforward but if it's leased then the lease-hire company will be the RK, which makes it more complicated.
its on finance lease to a friend.
shall i ask him if he has the V5?
yeh when i used to get tickets on my leased van, the lease company would send me the ticket details (and charge £20 for the privilege). I would then get the charge reversed once I won the appeal.
hopefully a letter to the "head of parking" will stop us needing to pursue it that far?
Thanks - do you think i'm better just letting this run it's course to adjudication then?
Or one more crack at getting them to back down pre-NTO?
I would take this all the way. They've mis-stated the law and that is a procedural impropriety.
Hi All,
NTO has arrived.
Can someone please advise me on what my representation should be given what's been communicated so far.
https://ibb.co/cwpwNny
Thank you!
its on finance lease to a friend.
So pl be exact. Who has received the NTO, you or someone else? If not you, then it's not 'your representations'.
What's the date of the NTO and who is it addressed too
16 07 19 is the date on the letter and it's addressed to the lease company.
Yeh the email from the lease company also came with a third party authorisation letter, giving the driver the right to make reps.
Can anyone advise on what our reply should be?
Are we best of just repeating what we've already stated?
Post this letter pl, just omit personal details but leave in all dates etc.
I very, very, very much doubt that it is what you think it is.
From what you imply, THEY and not you are still on the hook for the penalty. And if you are tardy or just plain ignore, which you are entitled to do because they cannot require you to act for them, then they could end up with Lawrence Grix of the Sheriffs are Coming fame knocking at their door in a few months because THEY remain liable.
Post this letter pl.
Thank you hcandersen,
there were two letters - one sent from the lease company to the council, and one from the lease company to the keeper...
both below thank you again.
https://ibb.co/d4YzHv1
https://ibb.co/mvrbPfx
You do NOTHING because there is nothing for you to do.(Far from their letter authorising YOU, it authorises the council(?))
Letter 2 dated 18 July headed Dear Customer tells you they have given details to the council for them to transfer liability to you.
You do NOTHING until you receive a NTO in YOUR name.
In the spirit of a customer wishing to provide their lease company with the highest level of service ( ) write back, thank them for dealing with the matter quickly and say that you will keep the copy NTO for information and await a NTO in your name. In the meantime, would they please confirm that their letter to Plymouth ... dated 18 July which was copied to you is their submission to that authority to transfer liability.
(I won't go in to why the last part is important just yet because you do not have a NTO).
Sorry to have to call you out on this hcandersen, but your advice on this occasion is dangerous. If the OP acts on your advice, there are only two possible outcomes:
1) The lease company will pay the PCN and seek to recover the money from the OP, or
2) The council won't receive any representations and will, in due course, issue a charge certificate (which the lease company will no doubt re-charge to the OP).
Trying to be a smart-arse and writing to the lease company on the basis that they should know what they're doing will achieve nothing if, as in this case, the person at the other end doesn't know what they're doing. Furthermore, while it's badly written the intent of the letter addressed to the council is clear, the lease company want the council to communicate with the nominated person. The letter also helpfully confirms that the nominated person has the full use of the vehicle.
h3lp, you need to respond to the Notice to Owner using the "not the owner" ground, and naming yourself as the owner. Also include a copy of the letter from the lease company to the council. This should result in the NtO being cancelled and a new NtO being issued in your name.
OK thanks for the input.
The letter from lease company says we should now make our appeal directly to the council (with their letter of authority accompanying it)?
Can I get clarification on what our next action should be?
Cheers.
@cp ??
You misgivings are way out:
) The lease company will pay the PCN and seek to recover the money from the OP, or
2) The council won't receive any representations and will, in due course, issue a charge certificate (which the lease company will no doubt re-charge to the OP).
The die has already been cast; the lease company have written to the council and the OP. The OP is merely acknowledging receipt and confirming the meaning and purpose of the letter to the authority.
You seem to have a problem with the straightforward and this action is exactly that, the response of a genuine person who received the two letters.
I have revised my view. It is ESSENTIAL that the OP writes to the lease company.
You seem to forget that if the OP does nothing then the council may indeed ignore the letter from the company and issue a CC. IMO the ONLY way of averting this is to write to the lease company because we know that the details in that letter do not comply with the mandatory elements required to transfer liability, contrary to your thoughts that all that's required is a clear intent to transfer liability - since when did this become the regulatory standard? Therefore BY DEFAULT the OP could be taken out of the enforcement process and find themselves lumbered in the contractual one.
Only the OP can avert this possible outcome and they can't do it by sitting on their hands.
i need to do something about this one - is there a tribunal service on this forum to decide which of you is right?
The first of the two posted letters seems clear: it is addressed to Plymouth City Council and it is signed by LeasePlan. There is nothing to suggest this has not been sent to the council. And here is the problem: it is unclear. You think it's been sent to the OP, I don't. But whichever, the OP must find out or possibly lose by default.
I suggested he started with LeasePlan for the very obvious reason that the ball is in their court. They could phone them, in fact this might be preferable. All they need to establish is exactly what LeasePlan have sent to the council e.g. only the letter dated 18th, nothing! It's simple fact finding and should be dealt with as such i.e. no 'overtones'. And once they and we know, then we can advise.
For example, if only the letter then we know that this does not comply with the regs as regards transferring liability, but the OP doesn't want to split hairs on this point at the moment, what they want is a NTO in their name. So, do the authority intend to accept this, what else might they need, could the OP assist etc?
But I think this must start with LeasePlan with a light touch.
hi chaps, i emailed the lease company asking for clarification on the letter of authority but haven't had a reply.
not sure what i should do next?
Phone them?
What is the last letter from the council Post it here and leave in ALL dates Time is getting short.
Don't lose track of the fact that if you don't make a representation by 14 August, all appeal rights could be lost and the council can impose a 50% surcharge. Personally I wouldn't mess around and I would just make a representation against the Notice to Owner, including the Letter of Authority. There is nothing to be gained in waiting IMO.
guys im genuinely not being lazy here, im just doing all this as a favour to a friend but I want to make sure that my NTO reply gives us the best possible chance of victory.
Can someone tell me verbatim what I should write in the NTO reply - should i just repeat what we've already said or does there need to be additional info included?
OP, can we just review where we are pl.
You are doing this for a friend;
They received a PCN and made an unsuccessful challenge;
A NTO whose date we do not know was sent to the registered keeper who is a leasing company;
They wrote (on 18 July) to the council authorising the council to 'communicate directly with the nominated person[whose details were included]'
We assume the 'nominated person' was your friend.
On the same date they wrote - presumably to the 'nominated person' - stating that 'we have given your details to the authority ..transferring liability to you'
Unfortunately, the 'nominated person's' details in their letter to the authority do NOT contain the mandatory regulatory details for transferring liability.
It is now 7 Aug. and we have no idea what the council are doing/have done.
The OP finally contacted the lease company(but when we do not know when or whether in their or the 'nominated person's name!), but has not had a reply. Maybe if the OP is not the nominated person, then the lease company won't correspond with them. (OP, there are such niceties as data protection rules)
You must find out whether a NTO has been issued by the council, or more accurately, the 'nominated person' must find out because you (OP) have no standing in this matter.
OP, if you are not the 'nominated person' then this is likely to get out of hand, assuming it hasn't already.
I do not see that reps can be made until 14 August as we do not know the date of the lease company's NTO.
Well regardless of what hcandersen might think, we clearly know the NtO is dated 16 July, so the deadline for reps is 14 August. Get the nominated person to send something along the lines of the draft below and include the job sheet, as well as the letter from LeasePlan UK Ltd to the council:
--------
Dear Sir or Madam,
I submit a formal representation against the Notice to Owner on behalf of the registered keeper, I enclose their written authority confirming I am able to make representations on their behalf. I submit that the alleged contravention did not occur, because at the time when my vehicle was observed I was loading (insert description of stuff being unloaded), I enclose a job sheet confirming the same.
The items had to be taken from the van to (insert explanation of where the stuff was being taken, say whether there were any gates / stairs involved etc) and the unloading activity was continuous and uninterrupted.
It is understandable why the CEO issued the PCN, but in light of this information I trust the penalty will now be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
Nominated Person
Thank you so much I will update again they reject
Well regardless of what hcandersen might think, we clearly know the NtO is dated 16 July,
If it's been posted, then fine. Which post?
So instead of contacting the council to find out the actual position, the OP or whoever is going to make reps against someone else's NTO on the flimsiest of bases, namely the letter from the lease company to the council which does not explicitly or IMO implicity authorise the nominated to person to do anything AND the lease company's letter to the nominated person that they have written to the council to TRANSFER liability. And this despite having the best part of a fortnight to simply contact the council to find out the situation. One minute we're waiting for a NTO in the nominated person's name, then we're not, and all because no contact has been made with the council.
OP, you seem happy to accept this advice - on someone else's behalf? - without answering any of the questions posed. Good luck.
PS: don't send the lease company's letter to you/nominated person to the council because if anything this would tell the council that you/they are NOT authorised but that, as the letter states very clearly, the company's intent is that liability should be transferred to the addressee in which case how the hell can you or anyone make reps??
Hi All,
Quick update, the council backed down after our NTO appeal. They said they'd considered the fact we supplied a job sheet and that we were unloading and therefore cancelled the ticket. Funny - this was the exact same as the original appeal I submitted - they were obviously saving face after the challenges made by you helpful lot!
Thanks again for the support, another victory chalked up!
Well done.
Pl post their letter and, just out of interest, tell us to whom is it addressed and, if you, is it also copied to the actual owner?
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