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PCN but I'd paid by app, Got a ticket while I waas sorting out the payment by app
GeoffC
post Thu, 2 Dec 2021 - 10:28
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Hi all,

here we go again.

Parked at the Bolton Street Car Park while the driver was having a birthday treat on the East Lancashire Railway. The driver parked up and went to the pay machine, options were cash or pay by app. The driver elected to pay by app but it was raining so walked to the nearby cover of the East Lancashire Railway gate, literally 30 metres or so away. The driver had to download the app, register his card for payment and then complete the payment and this took a few minutes to do. Unknown to him he was getting a ticket at the same time!





Appeal made on the basis that the driver had paid. Appeal rejected on the basis that "The PCN was issued before the Pay by phone payment was made". Time of PCN: 13:02, Time of payment 13:03.

This post has been edited by GeoffC: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 - 10:30
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post Thu, 2 Dec 2021 - 10:28
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GeoffC
post Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 19:24
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 19:23) *
Can you get a screenshot of the app showing when you paid?


Yes I have the screenshot, do you mean to post here?

In fact I have the receipt from that payment app and the screenshot from my banking app. The receipt shows 13:03 and the banking app shows 13:02.

This post has been edited by GeoffC: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 19:37
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mickR
post Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 19:37
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QUOTE (GeoffC @ Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 19:24) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 19:23) *
Can you get a screenshot of the app showing when you paid?


Yes I have the screenshot, do you mean to post here?


to post here and as evidence to produce to the adjudicator if req.
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GeoffC
post Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 19:39
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cp8759
post Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 20:07
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OK so you have the evidence to show that the PCN was served at the same time as you were paying, and it is accepted that you do not have to pay instantaneously the moment you park, the time required to walk to the machine or pay by phone sign and comply with the instructions is allowed.

Draft a representation and put it on here for review.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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GeoffC
post Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 20:46
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Ok, so using some words that were discussed earlier and also picking up on the contravention description, representations follow:

I parked in the Bolton Street Car Park car park as this was the most convenient location for joining the ELR on which a birthday treat had been booked for me, starting and finishing at the Bury station.

I was unfamiliar with the payment options but had cash, a credit and debit cards and mobile phone so I believed I would be able to pay in some form.

I walked some 50 meters or so to the payment machine on which there were two options: cash or via a payment app. The maximum tariff was £5 which took me until 18:00 and as we were unsure as to the length of journey I selected this tariff. I did not have enough change to cover this cost so I decided to pay using the app. I did not have this on my phone and as it was raining I decided to take cover in the shelter provided by the ELR station gate which connects directly with the car park but is still further from my car. This process, which included moving to the gate, downloading the app, registering myself and my card and making payment, was completed with some difficulty as the signal was bad and I had to move around to find a good signal, some operations took numerous attempts. Payment was taken at 13:02 according to my banking app. As the train was scheduled to leave at 13:00 I hurried to the train and didn't need to return to my car, I proceeded to the train quickly and after the trip we returned at around 16:00 at which point I discovered the PCN. I note that my banking app shows the time of transaction as 13:02 therefore I believe that I had already paid to park before the PCN was issued at 13:02.

The contravention on the PCN is described as "Parked in a car park without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket or voucher or parking clock". I am unsure which would apply in these circumstances, however the rejection of my informal challenge states "The Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued to you because your vehicle was seen parked in a parking bay whilst not clearly displaying a valid pay and display ticket" so this clears up what I needed to do. However this leaves me confused as to the actual contravention because no pay and display ticket is issued when using the app that you are offered to use at the pay machine.

This post has been edited by GeoffC: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 20:51
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cp8759
post Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 20:48
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Seems fine to me, obviously you need to wait for the Notice to Owner before you can send it.


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GeoffC
post Tue, 25 Jan 2022 - 12:12
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Just a quick update, this PCN has been cancelled by the council.

Thanks everyone, your help is much appreciated.
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Incandescent
post Tue, 25 Jan 2022 - 12:48
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Well done. As you can see, this is yet another council that could have cancelled at the informal stage, but game the system to force people to the formal (NtO) stage if they want to take the matter further. For me it is a disgrace, but it seems councils are to be allowed to get away with it.
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