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Bus lane markings, Threads merged
Eben
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 18:22
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Hi, hopefully simple question. I've attached a picture of a bus lane coming directly off a roundabout. Simply, is this legal? Also Google Maps link below. Once you get past the initial sign post there's no markings any where. You could in theory come down the other lane, do a U turn before the roundabout but into focus of the traffic camera and know nothing about it.

Google Pic

Cheers, Eben
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post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 18:22
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baggins1234
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 18:43
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QUOTE (Eben @ Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 19:22) *
Hi, hopefully simple question. I've attached a picture of a bus lane coming directly off a roundabout. Simply, is this legal? Also Google Maps link below. Once you get past the initial sign post there's no markings any where. You could in theory come down the other lane, do a U turn before the roundabout but into focus of the traffic camera and know nothing about it.

Google Pic

Cheers, Eben


There are signs on the approaches to the roundabout showing a bus lane on the roundabout itself plus the sign on the roundabout itself so why would you need more?
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 19:09
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The signs are legal, but this does not mean a PCN would be
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bill w
post Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 00:25
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Isn't it a bus gate, rather than a bus lane??
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The Rookie
post Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 01:23
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It is indeed.....

Just got a friend off a PCN for a very similar bus gate.


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Eben
post Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 17:06
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Hi

I had a bus gate fine and didn't question it, paid the £30 and got on with life. I then get a 2nd letter saying I underpaid and the deadline had ran out. So I've questioned their dates partly because there's no date stated in the letter, it just says 'within 14 days of the date of service...', though they have quoted a specific date at me which I can't see tying in with anything. They even quoted the payment date back to me incorrectly (2 days later!)

So, when they say date of service, is that when the letter arrives on my door mat, when I open it... and given I had just moved home and had a royal redirection service in place (which adds time, the 2nd letter was 9 days after their posting date) ... how do they determine the date, and if it's when it's opened how can they record that not knowing when I see it?

Thanks.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 17:17
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Two working days after posting
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cp8759
post Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 17:18
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QUOTE (Eben @ Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 18:06) *
Hi

I had a bus gate fine and didn't question it, paid the £30 and got on with life. I then get a 2nd letter saying I underpaid and the deadline had ran out. So I've questioned their dates partly because there's no date stated in the letter, it just says 'within 14 days of the date of service...', though they have quoted a specific date at me which I can't see tying in with anything. They even quoted the payment date back to me incorrectly (2 days later!)

So, when they say date of service, is that when the letter arrives on my door mat, when I open it... and given I had just moved home and had a royal redirection service in place (which adds time, the 2nd letter was 9 days after their posting date) ... how do they determine the date, and if it's when it's opened how can they record that not knowing when I see it?

Thanks.

The date of service is two business days after the date of posting, so if the post on a Monday the date of service is the following Wednesday. As always for the best advice, please post all the documents on here.
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NELSON MANDELA
post Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 18:40
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 20:09) *
The signs are legal, but this does not mean a PCN would be


The camera sign in the picture is a speed camera sign it is not a bus lane camera sign, therefore the signs in place do not convey to the driver the prohibition. Coventry was granted a city wide authorisation for the use of the 953 blue roundel next to the "and authorised vehicles"plate its case number is 4186. The 953 diagram is prevented by general direction 20 in TSRGD 2002 from being placed with any sign other than the 953.1 sign "only". There is no authorisation for the speed camera sign to be placed next to the 953 diagram and therefore it is illegal under TSRGD 2002.

This post has been edited by NELSON MANDELA: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 18:55
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 19:24
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QUOTE (NELSON MANDELA @ Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 19:40) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 20:09) *
The signs are legal, but this does not mean a PCN would be


The camera sign in the picture is a speed camera sign it is not a bus lane camera sign, therefore the signs in place do not convey to the driver the prohibition. Coventry was granted a city wide authorisation for the use of the 953 blue roundel next to the "and authorised vehicles"plate its case number is 4186. The 953 diagram is prevented by general direction 20 in TSRGD 2002 from being placed with any sign other than the 953.1 sign "only". There is no authorisation for the speed camera sign to be placed next to the 953 diagram and therefore it is illegal under TSRGD 2002.


No the camera sign is not a regulatory sign And stop talking about TSRGD 2002 it has been revoked

TSRGD 2016 schedule 3 part 2 item 33 and part 4 reg 17
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peterguk
post Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 21:41
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QUOTE (NELSON MANDELA @ Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 19:40) *
The camera sign in the picture is a speed camera sign it is not a bus lane camera sign


Can you show the difference please?

Are bus camera signs obligatory?


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Neil B
post Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 22:44
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QUOTE (Eben @ Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 18:06) *
Hi

I had a bus gate fine and didn't question it, paid the £30 and got on with life. I then get a 2nd letter saying I underpaid and the deadline had ran out. So I've questioned their dates partly because there's no date stated in the letter, it just says 'within 14 days of the date of service...', though they have quoted a specific date at me which I can't see tying in with anything. They even quoted the payment date back to me incorrectly (2 days later!)

Unless you SHOW us the documents it's impossible to be sure what has happened.
You have a Charge Certificate it seems?

You've given us no dates at all.

QUOTE (Eben @ Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 18:06) *
the letter, it just says 'within 14 days of the date of service...',

Current Coventry BL PCNs don't use that wording.


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17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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NELSON MANDELA
post Sun, 15 Apr 2018 - 15:34
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No the camera sign is not a regulatory sign And stop talking about TSRGD 2002 it has been revoked

TSRGD 2016 schedule 3 part 2 item 33 and part 4 reg 17
[/quote]


The signs in place were were originally prevented by the legislation at the time from being used (TSRGD 2002). Coventry applied for a non-prescribed sign authorisation which was case 4186, this included the 953 sign with the “and authorised vehicles” plate and this drawing was numbered GT50/029/0012-1. On the 10 th of December 2015 case 4352 was approved its title was “Amendment to case 4186 Bus Gate and combined speed limit/RPZ Sign Area wide”.

Within case 4352 it says “This authorisation replaces the earlier one dated 4 August 2014 under reference GT50/029/0012”, ie it replaces 4186. The interesting part is that the first step of the new order is to authorise sign GT50/029/0012-1 that is the sign authorised under case 4186, this makes no sense. The new sign in the new order is numbered GT50/029/0013-1, but there is no narrative in the order which authorises these signs. It looks like someone has copied and pasted parts of the previous order but forgot to update the numbers to the new drawing numbers. In effect the signs in place at the location were approved by 4186 then repealed by 4352 which then failed to approve its replacement.

4352 also says “The provisions of Regulations 12 and 20 of the Traffic Signs Regulations 2002”...”shall apply to the authorised plate in the same manner as they apply to the plate shown in diagram 953.2 when used in conjunction with sign to diagram 953”. This is a bit confused as 12 and 20 of the regulations do not mention 953 or 953.2, it seems that this is a reference to general direction 20 and 21. That is that the 953 sign and the new plate “and authorised vehicles” which is to be treated as the 953.2 can only be placed with each other or the 953.1 sign, no other sign regulatory or otherwise can be placed next to them. The speed camera sign number 879 used at the location can be found in the Traffic Signs manual in chapter 3 “Regulatory signs”.

TSM
14.40 Signs prescribed by the Regulations for indicating speed cameras are diagrams 878, 879, 880 and 880.1. The sign to diagram 878 is used to indicate the boundary of an area where camera enforcement is taking place. Direction 32(1) requires that signs to diagram 878, 879, 880 and 880.1 are placed only in an area or along a route where enforcement cameras are from time to time in use. The sign to diagram 879 is a reminder that camera enforcement is taking place, and may be used more frequently than the sign to diagram 878. It is often co-located with a speed limit sign (see para 14.43).


TSRGD 2002

Signs to be placed only in combination with specified plates or other signs
20.—(1) A sign shown in a diagram whose number appears and is placed in the circumstances (if any) specified in column (2) of an item in the Table may be placed on a road only in combination with a plate shown in the diagram whose number appears in column (3) of that item.

Table
(1) (2) (3)
Item Sign diagram number Plate diagram number

16. 953 953.2
17. 953.1 953.2

Plates to be placed only in combination with specified signs
21.—(1) A plate shown in a diagram whose number appears and is in the form (if any) specified in an item in column (2) of the Table may be placed on a road only in combination with a sign shown in a diagram whose number appears and is placed in the circumstances (if any) specified in column (3) of that item.

Table
(1) (2) (3)
Item Plate diagram number Sign diagram number

65. 953.2 953 or 953.1


http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4352.pdf




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Neil B
post Sun, 15 Apr 2018 - 16:35
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and this is relevant to a PCN incurred in 2018, how?


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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NELSON MANDELA
post Sun, 15 Apr 2018 - 17:18
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I'm trying to understand how the signs in place are "legal" which was an earlier post. Even if they are illegal it may not help the OP's defense, but if they are illegal it could help explain that it caused some confusion as to what the prohibition was.

If it turns out that the 4352 authorisation is legally sound, i.e. it was merely an administrative mistake to authorise GT50/029/0012-1 when they meant to authorise GT50/0029/0013-1, then the authorisation would seem to continue as long as it met the requirements of TSRGD 2002. Under TSRGD 2002 no other signs can be placed next to the 953/953.2 signs.

If however the signs are placed under TSRGD 2016 then their is no conflict with the signs being placed with any other sign, however I do not see the 879 camera sign in TSRGD 2016.

In either case the 879 speed camera sign leads to some confusion that the prohibition is on speed. Because the thick white line is not used to indicate it as a bus lane it appears to be a normal road but there is nothing in the non-prescribed sign authorisation to require any road marking and the traffic island is correct according to TSM.

The Traffic Signs Manual says this about bus gates;

15.30 A bus gate is a short length of bus-only street
(see para 15.4). On a two-way road, access may be
restricted to buses in one direction only, with all
traffic permitted in the opposite direction, i.e. similar
to a contra-flow lane, but too short to be signed
as such. In this case, that part of the carriageway
reserved for buses should be separated from the
opposing flow of traffic by a traffic island and not
by a continuous line marking to diagram 1049

This post has been edited by NELSON MANDELA: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 - 17:25
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