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[NIP Wizard] NIP sent to insurer not registered keeper
SIJ34
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 08:59
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - February 2018
Date of the NIP: - 66 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 67 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A30 Menzies, NR JCT with Warleggan and St Neot, Cornwall (both directions)
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Insurance policy holder
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I have received a NIP over 2 months after offence. I am the owner and policy holder but not the registered keeper. My wife is the registered keeper but never received a NIP herself. My wife posted changed address with DVLA on 29/1/18 4 days before offence took place and received new V5 on 3/2/18, so I would have expected records to be updated by the time NIP was sent out. Should I ask police for confirmation this was sent to the old address of my wife and how do we proof this if so, is true?
The NIP was in my name and addressed to me at the new address but the vehicle is insured and kept at a different address. How have the police linked me to the new address? The only way is as there records show this address.
What process/advice would you seek as it seems no attempt even at new address to contact registered keeper first?


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 08:59:50 +0000
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post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 08:59
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peterguk
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 09:02
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What is the DOCREF DATE on page 2 of the V5C? This is the actual date DVLA updated their records. If it is after the date of offence then the the old address is what DVLA forwarded to the police.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 09:03


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SIJ34
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 09:22
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Unfortunately I sold the vehicle a week later and only have a photo of fron page. I know it was the 31/1/18 as we did 4 vehicles all at the same time (all say this date). And we received them back in the post 3/2/18.
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Jlc
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 09:28
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That seems an impossibly quick turnaround by the DVLA but as noted the docref is vital. Also the police use the PNC system which is an overnight copy. It seems most likely the 1st NIP went to the previous address. Ask them...

However, the requirement to respond to the s172 request remains. (If you are the person keeping the vehicle then that would be to name the driver, otherwise provide the information you have that could lead to the identification)

What’s the alleged offence?

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 09:30


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 09:51
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QUOTE
What process/advice would you seek as it seems no attempt even at new address to contact registered keeper first?


That is not a reasonable assumption, it is much more likely that the NIP went to your previous address and as no response was received the police then consulted the insurance database. Regardless of whether you have that unlikely defence, you have now received a requirement under s.172 to give any information which is in your power to give to aid the identification of the driver, so that is what you must now do.


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SIJ34
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 10:13
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I can assure you that was the DVLA turnaround.
My question is not about disputing driver details as I have supplied them above or the requirements of the S172.
I want to know if it is worth seeking legal advice rather than just accepting concequences as it appears the attempt to contact registered keeper was not followed correctly.
If you read fully my point I state as the insurer I am not connected to said address so what process did police follow.
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Jlc
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 10:37
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Ask them.


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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SIJ34
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 10:43
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And if they verbally confirm sent to old address then I should say no more to them, supply details back and seek advice as I believe this was incorrect?
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Jlc
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 11:07
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Why would they lie? Do you have access to the previous address?


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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SIJ34
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 11:38
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That isn't really the question.
I'm just after advice on whether legal advice is worth seeking based on the information given.
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Jlc
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 11:53
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Any defence would turn on the facts. The ‘advice’ given here would unlikely differ.

If the DVLA did update promptly there’s still a chance the previous address was still used but it’s tight.

One thing is likely is that they will claim they complied with the necessary obligations and if you wanted to challenge then it would go to court. I note you haven’t told us what the allegation is?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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peterguk
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 12:16
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QUOTE (SIJ34 @ Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 12:38) *
I'm just after advice on whether legal advice is worth seeking based on the information given.


Isn't legal advice what you're getting here?


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NewJudge
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 12:58
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If you consider it from their (the police or camera partnership or whoever) point of view, why on Earth would they want to send correspondence to an address they know is no longer valid? The legislation says this:

A notice required by this section to be served on any person may be served on that person—

(a) by delivering it to him;
(b) by addressing it to him and leaving it at his last known address; or
© by sending it by registered post, recorded delivery service or first class post addressed to him at his last known address.


Assuming the first NIP was sent to your old address it is clear that, whatever dates you have for the change of address having been actioned, the system that produces the NIPs used your old address. If they confirm it was sent to your old address they will contend that, as far as they are concerned, at the time the NIP was sent, that was your “last known address”. The only course you will have to challenge the validity of any prosecution is to take the matter to court and ask for the prosecution to be struck out due to no NIP being served in time.

You have not said what the alleged speed and limit was but if the offence qualifies for a Fixed Penalty (or even a speed awareness course) it will cost you £100. If you plead Not Guilty and fail you will face prosecution costs of at least £300 and possibly nearer £600. As well as that you will face an income-related fine and a surcharge of 10% of that fine.
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Logician
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 16:17
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The DVLA database is copied on to the Police National Computer overnight, and the police/camera partnerships access that, which will be the last known information available to them about the registered keeper and their address. To obtain a previous address they would have to depart from their standard routine, and there would be no reason for them to do so, their interest clearly lies in using the most up-to-date information available. It is there very unlikely that you have a defence available on the basis that the requirements of s.172 were not complied with. If you are facing a six month totting ban if you receive the points this offence would bring, then any possible defence, however speculative and costly it may be, might be worth exploring. Absent that circumstance, my advice would be not to mount a defence on these grounds.

This post has been edited by Logician: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 16:18


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southpaw82
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 17:02
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QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 17:17) *
the requirements of s.172

Section 1 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Logician
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 20:21
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 18:02) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 17:17) *
the requirements of s.172
Section 1 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.


Whoops, thanks for the correction.



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