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Caught by community speedwatch - Suffolk
shaftonmatt
post Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 12:01
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Was hoping someone could help with this latest scenario... just answered the door to the postie and one of the letters is from Suffolk Constabulary of a notice of intended prosecution.


I remember this as I was exiting my golf club and there was a car travelling on the road I was turning into, appeared to be at speed but possibly at the 30mph limit so I pulled out and accelerated safely to avoid any need for them to break (several hundred yards away). I realised I was over the 30mph (approx 35mph) speed limit and took my foot off the accelaration right at the time as I saw a "nothing better to do old dear" with an high viz jacket and camera.


I contunued my trip down the road at 30mph and thought nothing more of it as I quickly searched if this was enforceable (may have looked at the wrong site).. fast forward to today and it appears that I have a NIP. So...


1) My assumption, rightly or wrongly, was that if caught by a member of the public, that the police force could only issue a warning letter rather than a NIP?
2) Does the equipment need to be regularly calibrated and as such surely constant moving by members of the public could lead to regular calibrations being required?
3) I am the unproud owner of 3 points already from last year and prior to that had a speed awareness course in Yorkshire... is it likely that I will get the opportunity for a speed awareness course in Suffolk as I have read that if it was my first offense in that county then this is how it would be dealt with in this circumstance?
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post Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 12:01
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baggins1234
post Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 12:05
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No
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No
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shaftonmatt
post Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 12:20
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Awesome... thanks for the help.... knew I should have thrown the miserable old hag into my boot. Oh well
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cp8759
post Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 12:30
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See https://www.suffolk.police.uk/services/watch-schemes

"How it works:

Trained volunteers verify and record the registration numbers of offending vehicles.
These details are forwarded to Suffolk Police who will send offenders a letter.
A maximum of two letters will be sent to offenders.
Persistent offenders may be targeted for police enforcement.
Follow-up work on education and enforcement by Suffolk Police and our partners will also take place as appropriate.
"

If you've had two letters before that might be the answer.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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666
post Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 12:48
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Might not the "old dear" have been a police person?
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Redivi
post Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 13:52
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How long after the alleged speeding event did the NIP arrive ?

Some community Speedwatch records take a while to work through the system before the NIPs are issued
As a result, they can arrive outside the 14 days deadline
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Logician
post Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 15:16
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If you have a NIP then you will have to identify yourself as the driver or commit an offence, whether they then take it further is another matter. I think it unlikely that in the ultimate the 'old hag' will wish to come and give evidence in court and risk being cross-examined about her training, experience and so on.


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Redivi
post Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 16:40
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If you have a NIP an S172 then you will have to identify yourself as the driver or commit an offence

FIFY
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Ocelot
post Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 18:12
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Was this your first letter regarding Community Speedwatch?
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StuartBu
post Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 18:22
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 17:40) *
If you have a NIP an S172 then you will have to identify yourself as the driver or commit an offence

FIFY

Its quite common in here for the initial contact (S172) to be referred to as a NIP In such cases like this the driver has to be identified so that any warning letter can be sent to the correct person.
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shaftonmatt
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 18:59
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 13:30) *
See https://www.suffolk.police.uk/services/watch-schemes

"How it works:

Trained volunteers verify and record the registration numbers of offending vehicles.
These details are forwarded to Suffolk Police who will send offenders a letter.
A maximum of two letters will be sent to offenders.
Persistent offenders may be targeted for police enforcement.
Follow-up work on education and enforcement by Suffolk Police and our partners will also take place as appropriate.
"

If you've had two letters before that might be the answer.


This is the first letter and whilst its not telling me I WILL be prosecuted it is a NIP asking for my details. Heres hoping it will be a warning letter


QUOTE (666 @ Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 13:48) *
Might not the "old dear" have been a police person?


Unless Suffolk have started taking on 80+ year olds then I doubt it... definately not

QUOTE (Redivi @ Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 14:52) *
How long after the alleged speeding event did the NIP arrive ?

Some community Speedwatch records take a while to work through the system before the NIPs are issued
As a result, they can arrive outside the 14 days deadline


Well within the deadline, think it was received around 8-10 days after the date of the offense

QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 16:16) *
If you have a NIP then you will have to identify yourself as the driver or commit an offence, whether they then take it further is another matter. I think it unlikely that in the ultimate the 'old hag' will wish to come and give evidence in court and risk being cross-examined about her training, experience and so on.


This has already been responded to so will wait to see what the response is

QUOTE (Ocelot @ Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 19:12) *
Was this your first letter regarding Community Speedwatch?

Yes but its not come in the form of a letter regarding a community speedwatch, its just an NIP
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emsgeorge
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 19:47
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Why do I get the feeling there was a camera van either before or after the speedwatch old dears.

As above, they usually only trigger snotty letters, and then a real officer / police employee does some proper enforcement.

Do you have a dashcam you could review to make sure you didn't miss a van ?
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shaftonmatt
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 20:39
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QUOTE (emsgeorge @ Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 20:47) *
Why do I get the feeling there was a camera van either before or after the speedwatch old dears.

As above, they usually only trigger snotty letters, and then a real officer / police employee does some proper enforcement.

Do you have a dashcam you could review to make sure you didn't miss a van ?


No i have no dashcam but there wasnt anything on the road on either side from me leaving the golf club to getting several hundred yards up the road at which point I had slowed down, nothing in the other direction either.
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southpaw82
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 20:58
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Prosecuting a speeding offence using evidence gathered by members of the public is unusual, so far as I know.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 21:02
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If you are certain it was some old waste of space then write back before returning the S172 and ask for photos to "help identify the driver", not evidence/proof.

Then you will either: -

a) Find out a real camera was somewhere, or
b) Plod finds out that they forgot to put this in the "pointless letter" pile and cancel it, or
c) Plod confirms it was old waste of space but call your bluff. As has been said above if you wanted to take it to court you would have a good chance of winning.

Either way now is the zero risk time to find out. Don't return the S172 until you get a reply UNLESS it gets to 26 days, in which case you need to return it regardless or risk committing a separate offence by failing to name the driver.
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StuartBu
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 22:53
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QUOTE (shaftonmatt @ Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 19:59) *
QUOTE (Ocelot @ Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 19:12) *
Was this your first letter regarding Community Speedwatch?

Yes but its not come in the form of a letter regarding a community speedwatch, its just an NIP


As I said before in another post because they need to establish who the driver was so things can be taken up with that person .No point in sending a "warning letter" ( if that's the outcome) to the registered keeper of the car as they might not have been driving .
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BaggieBoy
post Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 23:14
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 23:53) *
No point in sending a "warning letter" ( if that's the outcome) to the registered keeper of the car as they might not have been driving .

That has happened to me though, my daughter was using my second car whilst hers was being repaired and passed a community speed watch (in Surrey) over the speed. as the RK I received a warning letter, there was no request to name the actual driver.
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StuartBu
post Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 00:16
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QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 00:14) *
QUOTE (StuartBu @ Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 23:53) *
No point in sending a "warning letter" ( if that's the outcome) to the registered keeper of the car as they might not have been driving .

That has happened to me though, my daughter was using my second car whilst hers was being repaired and passed a community speed watch (in Surrey) over the speed. as the RK I received a warning letter, there was no request to name the actual driver.

Thats plain daft- was it worded as though you were the driver?
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The Rookie
post Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 01:21
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A friend has had a Warwickshire speedwatch letter, as above it’s sent to the RK but explains that the driver was detected speeding, it wasn’t anything like a NIP and had no S172 response section.

My thought is as a above, that there was a real camera somewhere near the older lady, although speedwatch is usually done mob handed with 3 or 4 together. (or maybe the camera operator was in disguise - undercover as a Speedwatch granny?)

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 10:55


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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cp8759
post Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 10:47
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 01:16) *
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 00:14) *
QUOTE (StuartBu @ Wed, 11 Apr 2018 - 23:53) *
No point in sending a "warning letter" ( if that's the outcome) to the registered keeper of the car as they might not have been driving .

That has happened to me though, my daughter was using my second car whilst hers was being repaired and passed a community speed watch (in Surrey) over the speed. as the RK I received a warning letter, there was no request to name the actual driver.

Thats plain daft- was it worded as though you were the driver?

Community speedwatch letters assume the RK is the driver, it's just a warning letter so there's no point in taking it further than that. They probably assume if the RK isn't the driver he'll make the driver aware.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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