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Time limits and identification
coffee pot
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 11:44
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I passed a camera van on 10 Sept 2017. I received an NIP within a couple of days and replied to that with a letter of explanation clearly identifying myself as the driver. I heard nothing more until I received a letter dated 26 March 2018 with a summons for exceeding the speed limit and a contravention of S172 - not identifying the driver. Unfortunately I was away over Easter and only opened it on my return. They also enclosed a copy of my letter, so I know it was received. There are several questions arising from this, but the first one I would appreciate thoughts on are the period of time that has elapsed is it is over 6 months from the alleged offence to the letter being sent to me - and thus presumably before notifying a Court. Is this still valid?
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post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 11:44
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Pete D
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 11:54
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What exactly did you put in the letter. ?
What date was the information laid for the summons. Pete D
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coffee pot
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:01
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Thank you - I don't want to focus on the letter at this stage, just the timing. This isn't an area I have ever been involved with before. Where do I find the date it was laid for the summons (and indeed what does that mean?)
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Jlc
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:08
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A s172 offence doesn't occur at the same date of the underlying allegation. It's roughly 1 month after - so the contents of the letter do seem to be of primary importance.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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notmeatloaf
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:09
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As Pete D says normally this happens when you make an equivocal driver nomination, e.g. you think it is likely it was X, or you are not sure if it was X or Y.

The issue you have is that the six months for the speeding is irrelevant to all intents and purposes because the S172 offence would have been committed 28 days + two business days after the issue of the NIP, so at least a month after the offence. The speeding offence may be out of time but it is to your benefit it being there.

With both offences you can turn up in court on the day and ask the usher to speak to the traffic prosecutor. If you offer to plead guilty to the speeding in exchange for dropping the much more serious S172 they are very very likely to agree.

If you would otherwise have got a fixed penalty you can then ask the magistrates to consider sentencing at fixed penalty levels, which they have the discretion to do in their sentencing guidelines if the fixed penalty wasn't taken up for reasons unconnected to the offence. This would most likely leave you with £100 fine + £85 costs + £30 victims surcharge plus of course wasting some of your day.

It is annoying you have been disadvantaged by administrative problems along the line but a plea bargain as above is likely to be the best route available short of a defence to the speeding offence. You can no longer get a speed awareness course at this stage.



This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:11
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The Rookie
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:09
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The failing to identify offence couldn’t have occurred until at least the 9th October, probably later, so they are wishin the six months.

What you put in that letter determines whether you committed the offence or not, generally letters are a bad idea unless you know what you are doing as they often do not comply with the requirements of S172.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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Jlc
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:09
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QUOTE (coffee pot @ Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:44) *
...with a letter of explanation clearly identifying myself as the driver.

Do you use their form? Did your letter supply the necessary details and was signed?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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andy_foster
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:21
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QUOTE (coffee pot @ Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:44) *
I received a letter dated 26 March 2018 with a summons for exceeding the speed limit and a contravention of S172 - not identifying the driver.



QUOTE (coffee pot @ Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 13:01) *
Thank you - I don't want to focus on the letter at this stage, just the timing.


If you want people to give up their own time providing free legal advice on your case one issue at a time, perhaps you could start by giving us the relevant facts, not making stuff up - assuming of course that you have not actually received a summons.


--------------------
Andy

If you're going to try to contradict me, please at least try to get your facts straight.
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coffee pot
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:24
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The letter had the date, my name, my address and my signature and stated I was driving. There was no reply to it or any other communication from them until the summons.
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Jlc
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:28
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What was the speed/limit alleged?

QUOTE (coffee pot @ Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 13:24) *
There was no reply to it or any other communication from them until the summons.

You did not think to check with them at a later date?

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:35


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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southpaw82
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:29
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Is it a summons, or is it a requisition or single justice procedure notice?


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:31
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As the letter was clearly received, they’ve either made a right Horlicks of it or it’s not quite as you say it is, it’s exact content is fairly important if you want the right advice, your choice.

As noted above it’s all but certain you don’t have a summons, so would you like to tell us what you actually have (a summons is a specific legal document as well as a generic description, I presume you are using the generic description for something other than a summons but which has a similar purpose).

To add to SP’s list a citation if you are north of the border.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:32


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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Jlc
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:36
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 13:31) *
As the letter was clearly received

Just noticed that in the opening post. If they have included a copy then it would seem deficient if they are pursuing the s172. But we can only guess at the moment.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:37


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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coffee pot
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:49
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I regret I don't have their letter to hand right now, but from memory it is headed something like single justice or joint procedure. My letter contains details that are not relevant to this discussion and I will not be disclosing, so please do not continue to ask about it. Be assured there is a lot of helpful information you have kindly given already. Should I ring to talk to them?

This post has been edited by coffee pot: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:50
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peterguk
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:56
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QUOTE (coffee pot @ Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 13:49) *
My letter contains details that are not relevant to this discussion and I will not be disclosing,



Simple question - did you unequivocally name yourself as the driver? That is all the letter had to say.

As stated already, either you added unnecessary detail that suggested you might not have been the driver, or they have made a major mess up.


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coffee pot
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 13:08
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Yes. Someone did ask if I returned the form they sent - no, I did not.

This post has been edited by coffee pot: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 13:09
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Jlc
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 13:29
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QUOTE (coffee pot @ Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 14:08) *
Yes. Someone did ask if I returned the form they sent - no, I did not.

So if you unequivocally named the driver then you do not appear to be guilty of the s172 offence. Using their form is not required - See Jones v DPP.

That leaves the speeding. The 6 months limit might come into play.

QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 14:09) *
IMO the OP is right not to detail the letter. It is irrelevant to a plea bargain unless the letter is so incendiary the prosecutor decides to prove a point and pursue the S172.

Plea bargain? If the letter is sufficient to meet the obligations of naming the driver then what's to bargain? We don't need to the exact contents but as Peter has asked, was it 100% unequivocal.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 13:32


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ford poplar
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 13:35
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If OP wants our free advice he can provide the suitably redacted letter or pay a Solicitor for their advice with client confidentialilty.
At the moment, we do not know if both charges have been laid or whether a plea bargain is possible.
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NewJudge
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 13:35
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You have the answer to the timing issue (Posts #4 and #5). If you want advice regarding what to do next (i.e. whether to try to defend the S172 allegation, or the speeding, or both or try to do the deal outlined) then I would suggest the contents of the letter are very relevant. Your response was clearly received (non-receipt being very often the cause of situations such as you find yourself in). What you wrote may well hold the key to why the police have proceeded directly to court action for S172 and it may also have an impact on whether the deal mentioned is likely to succeed.

If you really want advice to be given privately then it looks like you've gone as far as you can here.
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Jlc
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 13:46
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QUOTE (ford poplar @ Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 14:35) *
At the moment, we do not know if both charges have been laid

Yes we do: (my emphasis)

QUOTE (coffee pot @ Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:44) *
...a summons for exceeding the speed limit and a contravention of S172



--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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