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Raggie
post Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 17:00
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Guys, can I just check if the magistrates guidelines calculator is still valid?

I'm guilty of a 49 in a 40 non motorway.

(Guilty as running daughter to a&e following a 999 call to abulance service who advised very long waits and to get her there myself if I could)

No intention of fighting, guilty as sin, and I would do it again..

Finger is crossed it's 3 points not a ban.

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post Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 17:00
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Jlc
post Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 17:04
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A fixed penalty of 3 points £100.

Or even a course offer if not Scotland.

It won’t normally go to court...


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Ocelot
post Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 17:05
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Have you taken a SAC in the last three years?
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Raggie
post Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 17:14
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Thanks guys, it's in England.

No speed awareness courses taken. Licence been on zero points fot the last 8 years i think.. generally been a good not.

Thought I had done a red light camera, turns out it's both, so the speed cams data is out of date..

Can't blame anyone but me, aftet seeing the state my daughter was in I would do it again..

This post has been edited by Raggie: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 17:15


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The Rookie
post Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 20:40
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While not a defence, if you mention you were fowlloing your daughter in an ambulance and they can see it passing the camera ahead of you they may just cancel. Don’t ask wasn’t get!

Otherwise it’s likely to be an offer of a course.


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nigelbb
post Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 20:45
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 20:40) *
While not a defence, if you mention you were fowlloing your daughter in an ambulance and they can see it passing the camera ahead of you they may just cancel. Don’t ask wasn’t get!

Otherwise it’s likely to be an offer of a course.

Read the OP again. They were using their own car as the ambulance as well hey were advised that there would be a long wait for an ambulance.

If the daughter’s condition were serious enough (or thought to be) the OP could plead Not Guilty & enter a defence of necessity.

This post has been edited by nigelbb: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 20:46


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British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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peterguk
post Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 20:49
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QUOTE (nigelbb @ Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 21:45) *
(or thought to be)


Really? So no serious medical condition actually needed for a defence?


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Raggie
post Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 20:52
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Thanks Rookie,

Its def no defence.. there was no ambulance..

Daughter woke me up in the night telling me she had taken an overdose and decided she wanted help...I 999 a call they said they were extremely busy and if I could get her to A&E it would be best.

Into the car and off we shot.

(Fortunately all is ok for now)

Thanks to all replies, happy to take it on the chin kinda, happy with the points just can't afford a ban..


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southpaw82
post Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 21:13
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QUOTE (Raggie @ Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 21:52) *
Its def no defence

I beg to differ.


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cp8759
post Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 23:56
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QUOTE (Raggie @ Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 21:52) *
Its def no defence.. there was no ambulance..

It is a defence, in fact there's two lines of defence that can be argued: the common law defence of duress of circumstances, and the statutory defence under section 87(1) RTRA. If it were me I would fight this all the way. Having said that, in the first instance a non-confrontational letter explaining the circumstances and asking them to cancel might be a good idea.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 23:57


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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disgrunt
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 05:46
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Can you request a copy of the 999 call telling you there were no ambulances?

All so evidence from the hospital of admittance and what was the “injury”

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nigelbb
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 07:36
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 21:49) *
QUOTE (nigelbb @ Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 21:45) *
(or thought to be)


Really? So no serious medical condition actually needed for a defence?

No, even if what is thought to be life threatening asthma actually turns out to be a panic attack it still can be accepted as a defence to a charge of exceeding the speed limit.


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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cp8759
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 09:19
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QUOTE (disgrunt @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 06:46) *
Can you request a copy of the 999 call telling you there were no ambulances?

Yes, a DSAR will do the trick.


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No, I am not a lawyer.
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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 12:11
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The issue will be that the 999 caller will have assessed the case and decided it didn't require an emergency response. It would then depend on what the call handler said to the OP, whether he needed to get there as quickly as possible, etc.

I have every sympathy for the OP and I think we would all have a heavy right foot. But if the call handler has assessed the call as Green 3, which in many areas isn't even a blue light response, and communicated that urgency to the OP then I'm not sure simply needing to go to A&E amounts to duress of circumstances.
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cp8759
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 16:03
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 13:11) *
The issue will be that the 999 caller will have assessed the case and decided it didn't require an emergency response. It would then depend on what the call handler said to the OP, whether he needed to get there as quickly as possible, etc.

I have every sympathy for the OP and I think we would all have a heavy right foot. But if the call handler has assessed the call as Green 3, which in many areas isn't even a blue light response, and communicated that urgency to the OP then I'm not sure simply needing to go to A&E amounts to duress of circumstances.

We have no idea what the call handler said, maybe it did need an emergency response but there were no ambulances available.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 17:37
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 17:03) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 13:11) *
The issue will be that the 999 caller will have assessed the case and decided it didn't require an emergency response. It would then depend on what the call handler said to the OP, whether he needed to get there as quickly as possible, etc.

I have every sympathy for the OP and I think we would all have a heavy right foot. But if the call handler has assessed the call as Green 3, which in many areas isn't even a blue light response, and communicated that urgency to the OP then I'm not sure simply needing to go to A&E amounts to duress of circumstances.

We have no idea what the call handler said, maybe it did need an emergency response but there were no ambulances available.

Just wouldn't happen for a Green 1 or 2. They would get someone to you even if it wasn't a first choice response.

For an asymptomatic OD some time ago where the OD was a known substance it almost certainly wouldn't be a 1 or 2. The key would be what they said to the OP about the urgency.
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cp8759
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 18:07
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 18:37) *
Just wouldn't happen for a Green 1 or 2. They would get someone to you even if it wasn't a first choice response.

For an asymptomatic OD some time ago where the OD was a known substance it almost certainly wouldn't be a 1 or 2. The key would be what they said to the OP about the urgency.

I'm pretty sure people have literally died this year due to being stuck in an ambulance queuing outside a hospital, I would have previously thought that such a thing "just wouldn't happen" but now I'm not so sure any more. I take your point on the grading though.


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No, I am not a lawyer.
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southpaw82
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 18:40
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It loses some of its relevance if the ambulance exemption rather than duress is used.


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Raggie
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 19:07
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Guys,

The substance was an excess of her medication being used to manage anxiety and depression.

The 999 call handler and I spoke for less than a min, discussion revolved around me asking wtf these tablets did, the call handler didn't know, I said what to do, she said can't advise but if I can get her to a&e then do so as a long wait for ambulances that night.

We really didn't get into details about grading and such forth. It was a case of we needed help, a&e was quickest as 999 said so.

Turns out one side effect of these tablets being taken in excess (we had confirmed at the hospital) is either death, stomach cramps, headaches or vomiting.. we got the later all over the back seat.

So in the ten mins to hospital ( we are really close hence the drive rather than wait decision) she manages to expel most of the problem,

As I say me bad, hands up.


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cp8759
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 19:30
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QUOTE (Raggie @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 20:07) *
Guys,

The substance was an excess of her medication being used to manage anxiety and depression.

The 999 call handler and I spoke for less than a min, discussion revolved around me asking wtf these tablets did, the call handler didn't know, I said what to do, she said can't advise but if I can get her to a&e then do so as a long wait for ambulances that night.

We really didn't get into details about grading and such forth. It was a case of we needed help, a&e was quickest as 999 said so.

Turns out one side effect of these tablets being taken in excess (we had confirmed at the hospital) is either death, stomach cramps, headaches or vomiting.. we got the later all over the back seat.

So in the ten mins to hospital ( we are really close hence the drive rather than wait decision) she manages to expel most of the problem,

As I say me bad, hands up.

Stop putting your hands up, this isn't America. As I said, there is a statutory defence under RTRA section 87(1): "No statutory provision imposing a speed limit on motor vehicles shall apply to any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire and rescue authority, for ambulance purposes or police purposes, if the observance of that provision would be likely to hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose for which it is being used on that occasion.". You were self-evidently using your car as an ambulance (i.e. to convey a sick person to hospital) and compliance with speed limits would have been likely to hinder the prompt conveyance of your daughter to hospital.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 19:30


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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