[NIP Wizard] Late Delivery of NIP to Lease Company Options

[Pug205GRD]

NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - November 2022
Date of the NIP: - 2 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 29 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - M4, J20-J19 Eastbound, S Glos
Was the NIP addressed to you? - No
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Vehicle was on least to my company.
How many current points do you have? - 6
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Heading into some VSLs, seems I didnt slow down quickly enough (just).

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

• The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.
  
  You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 07:43:36 +0000

[Advertisement]

[andy_foster]

The leased you could do is tell us what happened (in at least 1 of the 8 threads)

Offence date Nov 2022 (the month before your other, now resolved, case). What has happened since?
Are the dates in the NIP Wizard your NIP, the least company's NIP. or some random fabrication?

[roythebus]

I really should be pun i shed for every little pun I shed.

[Pug205GRD]

The leased you could do is tell us what happened (in at least 1 of the 8 threads)

Offence date Nov 2022 (the month before your other, now resolved, case). What has happened since?
Are the dates in the NIP Wizard your NIP, the least company's NIP. or some random fabrication?

This is a totally seperate incident and the additional information I provided seems to have been deleted.

[The Rookie]

Or you provided it in one of the SEVEN duplicate threads that were deleted, so how about you tell us again?

[Pug205GRD]

Or you provided it in one of the SEVEN duplicate threads that were deleted, so how about you tell us again?

I only made one thread although the Wizard did manage to duplicate the country multiple times and then fail to offer any course of action. I followed the post up with the additional information but assume that got attached to one of the many duplicate threads that happened. I have no explanation why this happened.

The additional information:

I was driving a van leased by my company. Offence was 30/11/22. NIP 1 was issued 2/12/22 but was not delivered to lease company until 29/12/22. I have a stamped copy of the NIP from the lease company and an email from them confirming the NIP was served on 29/12/22. December was a month of multiple post office strikes.

NIP 2 was delivered to my (now ex-) employer in March 22 and was duly completed naming me as driver.

NIP 3 arrived with me in early April and seems to have been a combination NIP/CoFP. I do not have a copy of this to hand. I filled in the driver details an selected the option to have the case heard.

26/5/23 I have the SJP forms here to complete. This is where I need the help. The original NIP is a long way out of time (unless this has changed recently) so how do I approach this? Assume I have to plead not guilty and go stand in a court room with information I have to hand. Is the email string good enough or do I need to get a proper letter from the lease company backing up my claim?

[The Rookie]

You plead not guilty and in the reasons box state that the NIP was not served within the 14 days required by Section 1 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.

However your plan there is very likely to fail, you would need at a minimum a compliant s9 witness statement from a relevant person at the lease car company and as it's likely to be challenged by the prosecution they must be willing to attend as a witness. (Read up on the David Beckham case where Bentley sent a witness to court to describe how they knew which date it was received (served) and how it was unlikely to be wrong). So to answer your last question, no and no, you need the above, neither of those options IMO is likely to be considered as creating the required proof by the bench, not least as both are easily fabricated.

As for multiple threads, it's repeat submitting!

[Pug205GRD]

So whats the likely damage of me going not guilty and losing then? Im already at SJP stage so the fine is likely to be around £300 now anyway. I could do without the points to be honest though, having kept clean for 20 years getting hit with 2 in s many weeks isnt helpful at all.

[The Rookie]

Contested trial, you don't get the 1/3 discount off your fine (which is income and offence based and we don't have speed/limit) or the 1/3 discount off the surcharge (40% of fine). Prosecution costs will be circa £620 instead of the basic £85 for a guilty plea.
Tell us speed/limit and we can tell you the multiple of your weekly take home pay (less just tax and NI and anything salary sacrificed - not other deductions).

[BertB]

What have you done with regards to checking that the first NIP in the chain was to the lease company?

You mention the lease company not receiving their NIP until 29th December, but have you seen a copy of the V5C to confirm they are the registered keeper as opposed to an external finance company, as is often the case with lease vehicles?

[Pug205GRD]

Contested trial, you don't get the 1/3 discount off your fine (which is income and offence based and we don't have speed/limit) or the 1/3 discount off the surcharge (40% of fine). Prosecution costs will be circa £620 instead of the basic £85 for a guilty plea.
Tell us speed/limit and we can tell you the multiple of your weekly take home pay (less just tax and NI and anything salary sacrificed - not other deductions).

Speed was 57 in a VSL (50 limit set). Currently 'between employments' so income is unknown as do not have the declaration of award from UC and wont get that until July 2nd.

What have you done with regards to checking that the first NIP in the chain was to the lease company?

You mention the lease company not receiving their NIP until 29th December, but have you seen a copy of the V5C to confirm they are the registered keeper as opposed to an external finance company, as is often the case with lease vehicles?

Vehicle in question was leased from Enterprise. The NIP was addressed to a PO Box in Aldershot. The reply I have confirming the date of service comes from Enterprise Holdings who share the same PO Box. I cant see there being another layer that I have no visibility of. Still got to bear in mind the postal strikes which were directly referenced in the email I have.

[BertB]

Yes the car was leased from Enterprise, but are Enterprise the actual RK? I would want to see proof via a V5C in their name before I launched a late NIP defence.

This post has been edited by BertB: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 - 11:49

[The Rookie]

57/50 is a fine of circa 50% of your Relevant Weekly Income (minimum used will be £140), so circa £70, plus surcharge of 40% (circa £28) so circa £100. Plus the costs of circa £620.

I think a NIP issued within 3 days would likely be the first in the chain?
The issue seems to be that the (known overall to be a bit chaotic) December post has resulted in it apparently not being served until the first working day after Xmas.

[Pug205GRD]

Is the strikes plus the information I already have enough to chance a day in court though? I have asked the recipient of NIP 1 if they are prepared to supply a Witness Statement to support the service date.

Alternatively, if the above is too risky then how do I minimise the costs of going guilty. Can I still use the above as mitigation to keep the costs low?

Another thought I have. Does the fact the SJP is dated 26/5/23 mean that information has been laid with the courts on that date or not? 4 days short of timing it out if not.

[The Rookie]

You would need a minimum of a compliant witness statement, but would they be willing to be a witness in court? The well known postal issues due to strikes and other related issue would help. You could also try (belatedly) to get some form of postal status from the sorting office local to the Lease company address.

Have you read up on the Beckham case?

You plead guilty, the NIP dates provide no mitigation at all, they don't change the details of the offence, and they either form (and are used as) a defence, or not, if you choose 'not' they are irrelevant.

There isn't information laid now, there is raising a written charge and accompanying notice (for the required 'commence proceedings), that would seem to be in time.

[Pug205GRD]

Just a note for me as much as anything else but there were strikes on the following days that are relevant to me:

30/11
1/12
11/12
14/12
15/12
23/12
24/12

Looking for somewhere online that can provide information on delays and other stats on the delivery of post during December.

News report from Bristol sorting office in early December. This is Avon and Somerset who are based in Bristol.

CODE

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2022-12-12/huge-piles-of-undelivered-post-stack-up-outside-mail-centre-amid-strikes

This post has been edited by Pug205GRD: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 - 13:04

[The Rookie]

The first 2 aren't relevant for a Notice dated 2/12. Don't dilute good points with bad ones!

[Pug205GRD]

The first 2 aren't relevant for a Notice dated 2/12. Don't dilute good points with bad ones!

I disagree. Strikes were happening since August and the fact there were 2 dates immediately prior to the issue of my NIP means there would already be a good 2 days of backlog in the system at the point mine got posted. Seems reasonable then that mine would be at the back of that queue so there is a reasonable chance that those 2 dates do have an impact on the speed of mine traversing through the system. They dont alone explain why the delivery was so late but those 2 dates do have some relevance.