Box Junction PCN Barnet Council Options

[chocolateandcoff...]

Can you please advise me if I can appeal this ticket for stopping in a box junction.

The junction has recently been repainted and extended and I was having an awful day with a screaming baby in the back of the car on autopilot. I clearly remember the traffic was flowing but then a car did a U turn so one further ahead stopped to let him go and a bus pulled out (there is a bus stop further ahead on the left).

I am questioning whether it is actually a box junction as per regulations because 2 roads do not join - it is the entrance to the bus depot on the right and the entrance to the tube station drop off?

I don't think this is relevant but Barnet Council website lists the wrong box junction on Station Road as the one that has camera enforcements.









Link to video https://youtu.be/Ol6-VEPmGEQ

This post has been edited by chocolateandcoffee: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 13:23

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[Mad Mick V]

Obviously the stricter rules which governed yellow boxes have been relaxed and a Council has much more freedom with box design.

https://tsrgd.co.uk/pdf/tsm/tsm-chapter-05.pdf

However my understanding of this set up is that there are two distinct yellow boxes and the two cannot be combined because of the traffic lane which runs between them.

If we consider the lane the OP was caught in, as a separate entity, it has no junction and is not used for the purposes of a fire, police or ambulance station. Ergo it does not comply with the TSRGDs.

The traffic management objectives are plain,including alowing buses to queue in the box once they have turned right, but that does not excuse the Council from its duty to comply with the basics noted above.One yellow box covering the full carriageway would have been OK with appropriate signage or better still traffic lights.

Even given flexibility in yellow box design this set up doesn't fit the bill IMO.

Mick

[PASTMYBEST]

Obviously the stricter rules which governed yellow boxes have been relaxed and a Council has much more freedom with box design.

https://tsrgd.co.uk/pdf/tsm/tsm-chapter-05.pdf

However my understanding of this set up is that there are two distinct yellow boxes and the two cannot be combined because of the traffic lane which runs between them.

If we consider the lane the OP was caught in, as a separate entity, it has no junction and is not used for the purposes of a fire, police or ambulance station. Ergo it does not comply with the TSRGDs.

The traffic management objectives are plain,including alowing buses to queue in the box once they have turned right, but that does not excuse the Council from its duty to comply with the basics noted above.One yellow box covering the full carriageway would have been OK with appropriate signage or better still traffic lights.

Even given flexibility in yellow box design this set up doesn't fit the bill IMO.

Mick

I would not argue with that and no reason it cannot be argued in reps and at appeal

[Mr Mustard]

The council still don't send a Notice of Appeal with the Notice of Rejection, adjudicators are split on whether that is right or wrong.

I would go with representations on 3 grounds:

1 box too long, it exceeds the confines of the junction
2 box not at a junction with a road, fire, police or ambulance station and
3 completely unpredictable traffic behaviour

Expect the council to reject all 3 and have to go to the tribunal with £130 at risk where in my view #1 stands the best chance, #2 a reasonable chance and #3 no chance at all.

Just my opinion. We are trying to see into the mind of an adjudicator which is always difficult and they vary in their outlook.

[chocolateandcoff...]

Thank you all for your replies.

Is it possible to contest on all 3 grounds or do I need to pick one of them?

I am tempted to fight and risk paying full amount because with knowledge of there now being a camera at this box, this is going to cause endless delays on an already busy road because traffic is unpredictable and long length of box.

Bella - what are your thoughts?

I can also confirm there are no signs at entrance of bus station saying that cars cannot enter.

I would go with the U turning car being an event that could not be anticipation and the length of the box

219008506A and 2170582946

Apologies, I am new to this board, can you please let me know what the numbers above represent so I can search for the relevant information

[mickR]

The numbers are tribunal case ref numbers.

[chocolateandcoff...]

The numbers are tribunal case ref numbers.

Thank you, can I access them online or do I need to make a FOI request to view them?

[Mad Mick V]

https://londontribunals.org.uk/

Click "Statutory Registers" then seach on the ETA section.

Mick

[mickR]

click here
Statutory registers,
ETA search. Case ref.

Edit the other Mick beat me to it

This post has been edited by mickR: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 - 11:40

[hcandersen]

[indent][/indent]Change the order of points...the first must be that it is not a legal marking because there is no road junction, as defined, the second being that even if there is then the marking exceeds the permitted extent.

And as regards whether a Notice of Appeal is included, this is square 2, not 1:

The Act requires a NOR to, inter alia:

(b)describe in general terms the form and manner in which such an appeal must be made,
and may contain such other information as the enforcing authority consider appropriate.


Clearly, if a notice of appeal is included then providing this does not contradict what is in the main body of the NOR, this requirement has been met. But the notice is not the legal requirement as such, it is (b) above and any NOR should be assessed against this requirement.

[chocolateandcoff...]

I have just returned from walking past the area again and the box extends even further than that on the opposite side of the road which makes no sense. As MadMick stated earlier, it only assists buses turning right, certainly not those turning left so I hope I have a good case on this alone. I will certainly also be stating it is not a legal road marking as no junction

I still need to read up on the process after the initial appeal is rejected but will start by drafting the informal appeal letter and post on here

[Mad Mick V]

May 2019 the box was the right size --GSV--- notwithstanding the junction issue.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6135026,-0....6384!8i8192
When they repainted it in the meantime it has been extended.

Mick

[chocolateandcoff...]

May 2019 the box was the right size --GSV--- notwithstanding the junction issue.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6135026,-0....6384!8i8192
When they repainted it in the meantime it has been extended.

Mick

I've just looked at that image but I think its actually the same size in 2019 but was faded further down. The location of the camera for the PCN makes it appear even longer but when looking in relation to the right turn arrows on the road, it appears to be same size. However, I want to stay I could still argue that it is much longer than necessary as it goes much further than the junction.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6135771,-0....6384!8i8192

This post has been edited by chocolateandcoffee: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 - 14:47

[Mad Mick V]

Yes you are right--can't see the faded bit but you can in this shot:-

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6135771,-0....6384!8i8192

Mick

[chocolateandcoff...]

I have drafted this for the initial appeal:

The alleged contravention did not occur on the basis that the Yellow Box does not comply with the TRSGDs.
A ‘box junction’ is an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and is
a) at the junction between two or more roads
b) at a gyratory system or roundabout, but only if it has full time traffic signals
c) along a length of a two way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point
d) a length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station

Firstly, in this case there are two distinct yellow boxes and, the lane in which the contravention is stated to have occurred, has no junction and is not used for the purposes of a fire, police or ambulance.

Secondly, if it were to be considered that the box was placed due to bus station exit on the right hand side, regulations clearly state the box should not extend beyond the mouth of the junction. As per the London Tribunals in Steven Thurston vs Richmond & Thames (case ref 2170285940), markings which extend beyond the junction of two or more roads do not mark out a box junction covered by the prohibition. Had the markings finished at the mouth of the junction as per regulations, my vehicle would undoubtedly have cleared the junction. As per London Tribunals Martin Forshaw vs Richmond & Thames (case ref 2170582946), motorists are entitled to make the assumption that the yellow box will finish once the junction is cleared.


Is it worth me also adding in the driver U turn interrupting traffic flow to it?

[stamfordman]

I would put in all possible grounds. I disagree that the u-turn driver is not relevant and if it were me I would lead off on it. What you want to do is get everything down now to carry through to adjudication should you choose to go that far and to get the council to respond on all points.

[chocolateandcoff...]

Ok, I was unsure because Mr Mustard was certain they would not allow it but I will re-draft to include it.

Does the wording relating to the box junction not conforming sound appropriate?

[PASTMYBEST]

Ok, I was unsure because Mr Mustard was certain they would not allow it but I will re-draft to include it.

Does the wording relating to the box junction not conforming sound appropriate?

Its always good to try and appeal against the alleged contravention if there is reason and there is. You can see the U turning car and that it affects your path out of the junction

[bella(trying to ...]

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.613721,-0.2...3312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.613721,-0.2...3312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.613721,-0.2...3312!8i6656

Got these shots off google maps if it helps with regards to the length of the box and the traffic flow.

We're also inclined to fight this too.

There's also a point to make about buses turning out of the station into the lane which would then block the drivers view of the road ahead (pedestrian crossing)??

We'll be back in the area on Thursday so will take some pics too and check out signage.

Is the timing's of the serving of these PCN's correct?? I know Mr Mustard was checking this out but mine say's "14 days/28 days beginning with the date of this notice"

I vaguely recall on another case, that this does allow us the 2 day posting time frame?
(sorry if my terminology is off)

both our PCN's date of notice is 13/03/2020

This post has been edited by bella(trying to work): Tue, 17 Mar 2020 - 09:04

[PASTMYBEST]

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.613721,-0.2...3312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.613721,-0.2...3312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.613721,-0.2...3312!8i6656

Got these shots off google maps if it helps with regards to the length of the box and the traffic flow.

We're also inclined to fight this too.

There's also a point to make about buses turning out of the station into the lane which would then block the drivers view of the road ahead (pedestrian crossing)??

We'll be back in the area on Thursday so will take some pics too and check out signage.

Is the timing's of the serving of these PCN's correct?? I know Mr Mustard was checking this out but mine say's "14 days/28 days beginning with the date of this notice"

I vaguely recall on another case, that this does allow us the 2 day posting time frame?
(sorry if my terminology is off)

both our PCN's date of notice is 13/03/2020

Timing is fine its the regs that are wacky. The payment period is from date of notice the date for reps and service of a CC is date of service

[chocolateandcoff...]

I have drafted this as my informal appeal - please let me know your thoughts.

The alleged contravention did not occur on the basis that I could not have forseen the intervening act of the blue vehicle which did a U turn on Station Road and interrupted the flow of traffic through the box. It is clear from the CCTV footage provided that traffic was flowing freely and the blue vehicle had not commenced the U-turn when I entered the box. I could not have forseen this action. This combined with the excessively long length of the box (which I have also discussed below) meant there was no option other than to stop at the end of the box.

I also want to add that the Yellow Box does not comply with the TRSGDs and therefore there is no contravention.
A ‘box junction’ is an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and is
a) at the junction between two or more roads
b) at a gyratory system or roundabout, but only if it has full time traffic signals
c) along a length of a two way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point
d) a length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station

Firstly, In this case there are two distinct yellow boxes and the lane in which the contravention is stated to have occurred is not a junction between roads and also is not adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance.

Secondly, if it were to be considered that the box was placed due to bus station exit on the right hand side, regulations clearly state the box should not extend beyond the mouth of the junction. As per the London Tribunals in Steven Thurston vs Richmond & Thames (case ref 2170285940), markings which extend beyond the junction of two or more roads do not mark out a box junction covered by the prohibition. Had the markings finished at the mouth of the junction as per regulations, my vehicle would undoubtedly have cleared the junction. As per London Tribunals Martin Forshaw vs Richmond & Thames (case ref 2170582946), motorists are entitled to make the assumption that the yellow box will finish once the junction is cleared.


Do I need to submit any further evidence or photographs at this stage?