Euro carp parks PCN in Finchley ondon. Options

[Korting]

Someone who had the use of this car overstayed in the car park of an entertainment park, cinema, bowling, restaurants etc.

I as registered keeper received the following PCN.





As I understand it, they can only go after the driver and they dont know who that is.

The text of the letter infers that the keeper is responsible even if they are a hire company,

As far as I know, I'm not legally obliged to name the driver so I wont.

I presume the text is therefore a way of scaring people into supplying information that they dont have to give.

I have deliberately left off the times to make is more difficult to see which car it is.

Should I write to them? Something like:

I am replying to your letter of the 20th September 2018 regarding your unsolicited invoice, ref no:........................................

I can assure you that I was not the driver of this vehicle at the time, and I am under no legal obligation to give you those details so I wont be doing so.

As the 'contract' is only between you and the driver and as I was not present at the time, I as registered keeper cannot be considered to be in breach of any contract.

On this basis, you will receive no payment and I do not expect to hear from you other than to say that you will be cancelling the notice.

Yours faithfully

Mr Korting

Can someone tell me if I should send the above.

This post has been edited by Korting: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 - 21:35

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[ostell]

Don't send that

Unfortunately if they comply with schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 they have the right to hold the keeper liable if they do not know the identity of the driver. Here's a link to POFA You need to look specifically at paragraph 9. Note that the header to 9 (2) says "The notice must—" so you go through the notice and see what does not comply.

As a atarter 9 (2) (e) is not there in the prescribed form, nor is there a period of parking that is required in 9 (2) (a). Note that a car moving in front of a cameras is not parking. Where is the date notice is sent, 9 (2) (i). 9 (2) (f) is also incorrect as the date given, as specified in 9 (6) is is not dependant on the issue date but the missing date of sending. You get the idea.

You appeal on the missing or incorrect POFA points. They reject and give you a POPLA code. Same point of POFA fail to POPLA and the agree with you.

Yes car hire companies can be held liable if the don't follow the procedures set out in para 13.

[Korting]

Note that a car moving in front of a cameras is not parking.

Unfortunately the driver overstayed by around 45 minutes so that argument cant really be used.

I shall compose a suitable letter tomorrow and post it on here.

One thing i have noticed is that people who appeal to POPLA and lose are the ones who get taken to court.

So what would happen if I ignored all correspondence?

One other thing which seems to contradict POFA is that the company tell you in their letter that the parking charge is because the driver of X vehicle has broken a contract which was put in front of them when they entered the car park, so how can the owner or registered keeper be liable for a contract that they didn't enter into and knew nothing about?

[ostell]

But the fact remains that there is no period of parking stated. This is required by POFA to be able to hold the keeper liable. They assume that it will be taken as the time between the cameras but that cannot be true for the very reason that it is not parking.

They go to court precisely because the keeper (or driver) has lost at POPLA and POPLA are saying the PCN was issued correctly.

If you ignored everything you would end up in court.

POFA is exactly about someone that was not party to a contract being held liable for that contract.

Has no one complained to the business that was visited and asked them to cancel?

This post has been edited by ostell: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 - 23:14

[Korting]

The entry and exit times were stated on the Notice to Keeper, what was not on the notice was the maximum time allowed for parking at any one given time.

[ostell]

Entry and Exit times ARE NOT period of parking. If it's moving it can't be parked.

[nosferatu1001]

They dont have to give the maximum times or ANY details of the contratc on the NtK. POFA doesnt make such specific requirements.

OP - as pointed out, the entire point of "keeper liability" brought in via POFA is tol hold a 3rd party liable for a contract they never saw. Its patently absurd, and obverturns hundreds of years of contract law, but hey. Torys.

[Korting]

Dear Mr so and so.

I am submitting an appeal on the above Notice to Keeper.

You state that on the 13th September, the car for which I am the registered keeper entered the car park at ....time... and exited the car park at ...time.... Your notice then went on to say that this car was parked for longer than the maximum permitted period allowed. The entry and exit times are taken whilst the car is being driven, and therefore by definition it could not have been parked

You have not told me the period for which the car was parked. This car park is generally very busy, it can sometimes take up to 20 mins to find a space to park in. it can also take between 20 - 30 minutes to exit the car park.

You have no idea how long the driver was driving around trying to find a space, nor have you any idea how long it took for the driver after leaving the parking bay to actually exit the car park so in fact you cannot tell me how long the car was actually parked for.

I refer to The Protection of Freedom Act (POFA)



9(1) A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.

(2) The notice must—

(a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

(6) A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales. You have not informed me


Your notice to keeper has not complied with the regulations set out by POFA and therefore I expect you to cancel this notice forthwith.

Your sincerely

My Angry

How about the above? Has anyone got anything to add?

This post has been edited by Korting: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 - 19:01

[Korting]

Is this ok to send?

[nosferatu1001]

It's fine - don't expect cancellation, however. Your research will have told you this.

[cabbyman]

I think you need to sit down and not only read PoFA but also understand it. You also need to read a lot more threads, including many of the ECP threads on here to reinforce that understanding.

At the moment, your posts indicate that you haven't a clue about the process.

ECP will reject your appeal but will send you a POPLA code. Your current approach will fail at POPLA. Get reading.

[Korting]

I think you need to sit down and not only read PoFA but also understand it. You also need to read a lot more threads, including many of the ECP threads on here to reinforce that understanding.

I really dont have time to start reading. I have a full day today and am going abroad for 3 weeks on business tomorrow.

I would really appreciate it if someone could tell me how I go about it and what to write in that letter.

[nosferatu1001]

So you want people to write a full appeal for you, doing all your work, because youre too busy? How much are you willing to pay for that service?

[Korting]

So you want people to write a full appeal for you, doing all your work, because youre too busy? How much are you willing to pay for that service?

I'm not asking you to write the letter, just give me some pointers. POFA looks incredibly complex, I dont understand it all, I wrote what I wrote on advice given by others earlier in the thread, Then cabbyman said that I need to read POFA, but I've been working flat out since 7am, got a breather for dinner then I have to carry on and if I'm lucky I'll get to be by midnight, then up at 7 to go travelling.

So if someone could explain what is wrong with my letter and how I could put it right, I'll be very very grateful.

[cabbyman]

There is nothing wrong and nothing right with the letter. As you will have seen from other threads, it will be rejected; it is merely a means to an end: To obtain a POPLA code without giving too much away.

Start work on your POPLA appeal and post your draft here for fine tuning.

[Korting]

Thank you cabbyman for your help.

I am told by the driver that they first went to eat at one of the restaurants, then went out to pick a friend up from the station before returning to the car park and going to the cinema.

As far as I'm aware, there is nothing that says 'no return within a stated period' so as far as I'm concerned when you return to the car park, the clock starts again.

I can put this in my letter, or leave it out.

I'll take yours and others advice.

[nosferatu1001]

They wont read it.

If you're not sure there is no "no return" clause, then why risk them going "gotcha!"?

[Korting]

It is now over 1 month since the letter was posted and I have not had any acknowledgement or reply.

Do I just wait or write to them again with a covering letter?

[bobthesod]

Other might be able to put some meat on this but ir appears the car has been done under the double dip scam It works like this
All times below hypothetical

1) Max 'parking' time shown on the board (say 1 Hr)
2) pic taken as driver enters at 20.00 they eat and depart the car park at 20.45 to pick someone up
3) pic taken as they leave
4) they return at 21.30 ..another pic
5) leave at 22.15..another pic

You will note that the two periods of parking pics 2 and 3 are withing the allotted time , AS are pic 4 and 5 for the second vist

The PPC 'forget' pics 3 and 4 and Bingo they have proof of an overstay Totally dishonest practice


Have you got proof, petrol receipt anther car park receipt that shows the driver was elsewhere between pics 3 and 4?.

If the signs DO NOT say that 'Return not permitted before X mins/Hours' that is also a win as it it two sep visits. Rather like you going to Asdaa and getting some bread, getting home and finding out you need butter, you go back to buy that........ TWO sep vsits

If the sign omits if tyou retern within X clause, then you appeal on that and question their APNR equipment

[ostell]

After 35 (?) days without a response the Code of Practise assumes that your appeal has been accepted. Don't be tempted to prod them.