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German Speeding Ticket
mudmover
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 12:07
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I have just received an ‘information letter’ alledging a speeding offence on an Autobahn one month ago. Evidence: a laser measurement with photograph.

I’ve read the previous posts related to French incidents, and because the point wasn’t raised, I assume ‘our’ 14 day requirement for receipt of the NIP does not apply - even if the case were eventually to be brought to a UK magistrates court?

The alleged exceedance was significant, therefore in addition to a hefty fine a one month ban would also be applied according to the German Schedule of Fines (and the letter).

Is the advice similar to the queries about alleged offences in France? I drive in Germany once or twice a year.

Thanks

This post has been edited by mudmover: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 13:28
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post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 12:07
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 12:42
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Previous reports indicate the German authorities seldom chase people abroad, but if the excess was very significant they might. How fast were you going and what was the limit?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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NewJudge
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 12:52
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As far as I know Germany operates its traffic violations on a "driver liability" basis (the same as the UK). That is, the driver, not the owner or keeper, has to answer any allegations. So how do they know you were driving?
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Logician
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 13:08
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If you drive regularly in Germany in that car I think you need to co-operate or change your number plate


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baroudeur
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 17:00
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 12:52) *
As far as I know Germany operates its traffic violations on a "driver liability" basis (the same as the UK). That is, the driver, not the owner or keeper, has to answer any allegations. So how do they know you were driving?


The driver should be identifiable by the photo which is taken by the speed camera.

If caught subsequently in Germany with an outstanding penalty it is possible for the driving licence to be seized.
.

This post has been edited by baroudeur: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 17:01
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nigelbb
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 08:36
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 17:00) *
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 12:52) *
As far as I know Germany operates its traffic violations on a "driver liability" basis (the same as the UK). That is, the driver, not the owner or keeper, has to answer any allegations. So how do they know you were driving?


The driver should be identifiable by the photo which is taken by the speed camera.

Even assuming that a photo from a speed camera is sufficiently good to identify an individual I doubt that the German authorities have photos of every driver with a UK licence so how do they know who was driving? The best they can do is what the UK authorities do & ask the Registered Keeper.


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British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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mudmover
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 09:51
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They have indeed asked me, as the registerd keeper, who was driving. Following a discussion about it with a German friend of mine, it seems that there is no equivalent of S.172 in Germany. Hence if the RK declines to confirm who was driving the normal procedure is for plod to make a visit and see whether they can identify the driver from the photo. Apparently before picture quality improved this was common and there is no jeopardy should plod for example decide that he/she can i/d the driver.

The alleged offence is purported to have taken place where the speed limit was 80kmph (due to roadworks) but there were no roadworks or repeater signs to indicate the limit, although it’s possible that it may have been signed a few km back. Following the ‘flash’ there were also no signs returning the limit to ‘normal’. Of course trying to argue this point (without dashcam evidence for example) is likly to meet with as much success as it would this side of the Channel!

The alleged speed was in the range 51-60 kmph above 80, ie 131-140kmph (I’m not going to post the exact figure).

This post has been edited by mudmover: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 09:52
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baroudeur
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 10:48
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QUOTE (nigelbb @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 08:36) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 17:00) *
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 12:52) *
As far as I know Germany operates its traffic violations on a "driver liability" basis (the same as the UK). That is, the driver, not the owner or keeper, has to answer any allegations. So how do they know you were driving?


The driver should be identifiable by the photo which is taken by the speed camera.

Even assuming that a photo from a speed camera is sufficiently good to identify an individual I doubt that the German authorities have photos of every driver with a UK licence so how do they know who was driving? The best they can do is what the UK authorities do & ask the Registered Keeper.


rolleyes.gif

It's when there is a follow-up or subsequent stop that the photo will identify the driver.. The post above clarifies the situation which is as you infer - RK is contacted and driver named.
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baroudeur
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 11:03
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QUOTE (mudmover @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 09:51) *
They have indeed asked me, as the registerd keeper, who was driving. Following a discussion about it with a German friend of mine, it seems that there is no equivalent of S.172 in Germany. Hence if the RK declines to confirm who was driving the normal procedure is for plod to make a visit and see whether they can identify the driver from the photo. Apparently before picture quality improved this was common and there is no jeopardy should plod for example decide that he/she can i/d the driver.

The alleged offence is purported to have taken place where the speed limit was 80kmph (due to roadworks) but there were no roadworks or repeater signs to indicate the limit, although it’s possible that it may have been signed a few km back. Following the ‘flash’ there were also no signs returning the limit to ‘normal’. Of course trying to argue this point (without dashcam evidence for example) is likly to meet with as much success as it would this side of the Channel!

The alleged speed was in the range 51-60 kmph above 80, ie 131-140kmph (I’m not going to post the exact figure).


Why the reticence to reveal the actual speed as, obviously, the German authorities are aware of it and, as in the UK, challenging the accuracy of the equipment will be pointless.

Whilst the risk of being stopped on further visits may be low it seems the ban could be enforced by seizing your licence.
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roythebus
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 23:43
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I understand it's illegal to use dashcams in Germany and several other EU countries due to personal privacy laws.
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cp8759
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 23:51
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QUOTE (roythebus @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 23:43) *
I understand it's illegal to use dashcams in Germany and several other EU countries due to personal privacy laws.

AFAIK it's illegal in Luxembourg, in Germany it's only illegal to publish the footage but there's no issue with simply using a dash cam.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 23:51


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No, I am not a lawyer.
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mudmover
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 12:56
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New advice says:

1/ German authorities are not permitted to seize a foreign licence (because it’s the property of the state in question).

2/ A ban cannot tbe applied to the holders of a foreign licence not resident in Germany.

3/ There is a 3 month time limit on identifying the driver.

4/ For completeness, whereas our lot have 14 days to issue the NIP, German Police have 2 months.

5/ Further completeness, speeding is not a criminal offence in Germany!

This post has been edited by mudmover: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 13:02
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Charlie1010
post Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 06:56
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The police can confiscate your licence in Germany for serious offences such as drink driving.
In France and many other European countries they can for speeding.
Property of the state is a red herring.
It may not be a criminal offence in Europe but it is still treated seriously.
Good luck.
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baroudeur
post Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 10:58
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QUOTE (mudmover @ Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 12:56) *
New advice says:

1/ German authorities are not permitted to seize a foreign licence (because it’s the property of the state in question).

2/ A ban cannot tbe applied to the holders of a foreign licence not resident in Germany.

3/ There is a 3 month time limit on identifying the driver.

4/ For completeness, whereas our lot have 14 days to issue the NIP, German Police have 2 months.

5/ Further completeness, speeding is not a criminal offence in Germany!


Better advice here which contradicts that which you have been given.

German Motoring Penalties
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cp8759
post Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 17:44
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QUOTE (mudmover @ Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 12:56) *
1/ German authorities are not permitted to seize a foreign licence (because it’s the property of the state in question).

What utter nonsense. There is nothing to stop the police returning the licence to the issuing state, after all they'd just be returning property to its owner.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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