Parking Charge Notification for own parking space - LBC received |
Parking Charge Notification for own parking space - LBC received |
Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 21:53
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 13 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,882 |
Hello, firstly thanks to everyone who provided me with help last year and apologies for posting again. To cut a long story short, I had to delete my account due to something job related and the PCN was a load of stress during this period for both me and my partner. I originally posted the topic here: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...;show=&st=0 about my partner receiving a PCN from PCM in February last year. We didn't hear anything for a good few months,since August 2018 until now when we have received a LBC from Gladstones.
The rough timeline of events is: 2018
2019
I was hoping they had given up after not hearing anything since August but I guess like a lot of us they are in need of money after Christmas. Can anyone advise on how to proceed now? I was planning on sending a letter from my partner stating that as previously pointed out, she is not the owner, or keeper and was not the driver of the vehicle, and we have already provided them with the correct information of who was driving at the time. In the very first letter my partner sent she said "we drive the vehicle" and "we did not display the permit" which I'm worried could make her responsible, letter posted below redacted: Dear UK Car Park Management, I am writing to you in relation to Parking Charge Notification *** and Car Registration *** which belongs to my partner, MY NAME, who also lives at the above address. I am also insured to drive the vehicle. Our car was parked in Bay ***, which was assigned to us when we purchased the the above property. However, unfortunately on this occasion, our permit was not displayed as it should have been. We are normally so vigilant with returning our permit to the dashboard after returning from a journey. Please find enclosed a photocopy of our parking permit for Bay ***. If necessary, further evidence can be provided to show that Bay *** was assigned to us upon purchasing THE PROPERTY and also that Car *** belongs to my partner and that we are both live at the above address and drive the vehicle. I hope that the parking charge notice can, therefore, be waived taking the above into consideration. Do you think there's anything that could get her in trouble here if it did go to court? My understanding is that they need to be addressing the claim to me. Thanks for any advice. |
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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 21:53
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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 22:20
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
So why not add to the original thread? It makes it easier for people to help.
Does your partner have a copy of that letter where the driver was identified? If she is the registered keeper of the car then they should not be claiming from her at all but claiming from the identified driver. Have you looked at the lease to say what is says about parking? There is probably the right to park and not have to display a permit nor pay if you don't. |
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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 22:30
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 13 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,882 |
So why not add to the original thread? It makes it easier for people to help. Does your partner have a copy of that letter where the driver was identified? If she is the registered keeper of the car then they should not be claiming from her at all but claiming from the identified driver. Have you looked at the lease to say what is says about parking? There is probably the right to park and not have to display a permit nor pay if you don't. Sorry I assumed it was locked. Yes, I've got a copy of the letter sent and all other correspondence on my computer. PCM never acknowledged receipt of the letter though. Yes (if I had replied to my original thread!), I went through the lease and there's no mention of permits or the parking company but it does state that it is our space. |
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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 23:09
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
How is it your space? Is it demised to you
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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 06:06
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
The parking bay is ours and it is stated in our lease. There is no mention of a pemit system or the requirement to display a permit in the lease.
-------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 07:00
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 13 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,882 |
How is it your space? Is it demised to you My partner owns the property as part of a shared ownership scheme from the housing authority and this includes the designated parking space. I think technically we must lease it from the housing association and they maintain it as the management agency. I've copied the relevant parts of the lease below: Park/Parking the Leaseholder paying during the Term: a parking maintenance charge and sinking fund contribution of £XX per annum payable by equal monthly instalments in advance on the first day of each month (or such other amount as the Landlord shall from time to time reasonably determine) LEASEHOLDER'S COVENANTS Repair To repair and keep the Premises in good and substantial repair and condition (except in respect of damage by risks insured under Clause 5.2 (Insure) unless the insurance money is irrecoverable by reason of any act or default of the Leaseholder).Provided that this obligation shall not extend to the Car Parking Space comprising part of the Premises which shall be maintained by the Landlord in accordance with its covenant at clause 5(3) of this lease Repair redecorate renew structure Subject to Clause 5.5 (Landlord's Protection Provisions) and to payment of the Specified Rent and Service Charge, the Landlord shall maintain, repair, redecorate, renew and (in the event in the Landlord's reasonable opinion such works are required) improve: (d) the Car Parking Spaces The Premises 3 The Premises includes: (h) the Car Parking Space edged red on the Plan and lettered [redacted] Mutual Covenants Not to carry out nor allow to be carried out work on any vehicle on any Car Parking Space or on any other part of the Estate Not to use the Car Parking Space comprising part of the Premises other than for the parking of a taxed and road worthy private motor vehicle Not to park any motor vehicle upon any part of the Estate save in the Car Parking Space comprising part of the Premises and not to permit any vehicle of any description belonging to the Leaseholder his family servants visitors or licensees to remain on any part of the Estate Common Parts in such a manner as to obstruct the ready approach to any part of the Building or the Estate No caravans mobile homes boats or trailers whatsoever and no commercial vehicle shall be parked on any part of the Estate or the Estate Common Parts except temporary use of removal or delivery vans Easements, Rights and Privileges The right for the Leaseholder and all persons authorised by the Leaseholder (in common with all other persons entitled to the like right) at all times to use the Common Parts for all purposes incidental to the occupation and enjoyment of the Premises including where applicable pedestrian and/or vehicular access to and egress from the Premises and the Car Parking Space forming part of the Premises and the Roof Gardens (but not further or otherwise) Defined Terms "Car Parking Spaces" means the parking spaces on the Estate and shown coloured yellow on the Plan |
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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 08:49
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
So there's your answer. The parking space belongs to you and the parking company have no contract with you to operate a business on your own land, nor does your lease require you to display a permit or pay a charge to a third party if you don't. Basically they are trespassing on your land. You already have a right to park there and have no need for a contract offered by the parking company.
So right to them pointing out that you are the landholder in that space and your lease does not require that you display a permit issued by their client nor pay a penalty. Their client is trespassing on your land. Enclose copies of the relevant parts of your lease. Suggest that the desist. |
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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 09:18
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 13 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,882 |
So there's your answer. The parking space belongs to you and the parking company have no contract with you to operate a business on your own land, nor does your lease require you to display a permit or pay a charge to a third party if you don't. Basically they are trespassing on your land. You already have a right to park there and have no need for a contract offered by the parking company. So right to them pointing out that you are the landholder in that space and your lease does not require that you display a permit issued by their client nor pay a penalty. Their client is trespassing on your land. Enclose copies of the relevant parts of your lease. Suggest that the desist. Thanks, I did write to PCM to say that but they did not acknowledge it. I'm concerned with the stated deadline on the LBC as they apparently sent one in December which we did not receive and they are now asking for response by next week (we have only had the LBC since last weekend). Also, I'm a bit confused with terminology, I am the owner of the vehicle and was the driver. Could my partner be considered as the keeper and can they be pursued because of that since they own the space? Thanks |
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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 09:19
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 9,985 Joined: 20 Aug 2008 Member No.: 21,992 |
If they have no contract to operate on that piece of land (your space), then they had no reasonable cause to obtain your data from the DVLA (and the simplest of due diligence process would have told them as much). I would complain to the DVLA and ICO.
-------------------- Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 09:49
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 13 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,882 |
If they have no contract to operate on that piece of land (your space), then they had no reasonable cause to obtain your data from the DVLA (and the simplest of due diligence process would have told them as much). I would complain to the DVLA and ICO. As far as I know, they didn't get any data from the DVLA. They are just assuming that my partner was the driver (and possibly keeper) as they appealed the ticket. Even when we have specified that I am the driver they have ignored this. |
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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 10:46
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 9,985 Joined: 20 Aug 2008 Member No.: 21,992 |
OK, apologies for that. Should have read the original post a little better.
In answer to your question above, they cannot pursue your partner, although that won't stop them trying. Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act which allows them to pursue the Keeper of the vehicle rather than the driver has language in there which states quite clearly that they can only do this if they do not have the name and serviceable address of the driver. I assume that when you admitted being the driver, you also gave them your address? If so, then this means that they CANNOT pursue the keeper using Schedule 4 of the PoFA, as they do not fulfil the criteria (i.e. they DO know the name/address of the driver, as opposed to NOT knowing the name/address of the driver, which is the criteria). However, the main issue here is that they have no contract to operate on the land in question (i.e. your partner's space). Any contract they might possess was presumably signed by someone from the Managing Agents? Have they admitted who they think they have a contract with? They need a contract with the Landholder, which is your partner, judging by the information here regarding the space being theirs. -------------------- Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 12:03
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 13 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,882 |
OK, apologies for that. Should have read the original post a little better. In answer to your question above, they cannot pursue your partner, although that won't stop them trying. Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act which allows them to pursue the Keeper of the vehicle rather than the driver has language in there which states quite clearly that they can only do this if they do not have the name and serviceable address of the driver. I assume that when you admitted being the driver, you also gave them your address? If so, then this means that they CANNOT pursue the keeper using Schedule 4 of the PoFA, as they do not fulfil the criteria (i.e. they DO know the name/address of the driver, as opposed to NOT knowing the name/address of the driver, which is the criteria). However, the main issue here is that they have no contract to operate on the land in question (i.e. your partner's space). Any contract they might possess was presumably signed by someone from the Managing Agents? Have they admitted who they think they have a contract with? They need a contract with the Landholder, which is your partner, judging by the information here regarding the space being theirs. No problem, I should have really replied to the original thread as the other user said. Yes we did give them the address, this was sent to PCM. I think I will send the same details to Gladstones and mention POFA as you explained. Yes I agree regarding the contract, I stated this in my correspondence following them refusing to waive our appeal (sent by my partner). They have not said who they have a contract with. We also contacted the MA but they are terrible, when they did finally get back to us all they said to my partner was "Yes, you have to pay this". I'm concerned about the short deadline with the LBC. I think I will get my partner to write to Gladstones saying again she was not the driver and mentioning POFA. I will also again provide my details as the driver (so they stop pursuing my partner). I will also mention the lack of contract again. This is unless anyone else has better advice on how to respond? |
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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 12:32
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
Letter as response to LBC
Include copy of the relevant portions of your lease Ask them why they think their client has a case. |
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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 14:20
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 9,985 Joined: 20 Aug 2008 Member No.: 21,992 |
It sounds to me like it was the Managing Agent who hired them. You need to nip this in the bud, otherwise more tickets will appear.
Write to the Management Agent. I understand, although I would like you to confirm, that you have contracted with UK CPM Ltd to manage the car park. You need to be aware that your jurisdiction for authorisation of a parking scheme extends only to the communal areas of the car park, and that space X.X actually belongs to me. Therefore you have no authority to appoint a third party to offer parking on a space which I own, and already have permission to park. I hereby withdraw all implied access to you, your employees, agents, and subcontractors (including but not limited to UK CPM Ltd) to space X.X of the car park. Any incursion onto this land (including for the purposes of placing speculative invoices on any vehicle parked in this space) will be deemed as trespass and tortious interference, and I reserve the right to take action against you and/or your agent for damages in respect of such trespass. May I remind you that, under Laws of Agency, you are vicariously liable for the actions of your agent. -------------------- Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 14:48
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
I have asked for the threads to be merged.
It looks to me as though you have never received a NtK. Contact SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gov.uk to see if they ever applied for RKs' details. It may be useful information if a NtK suddenly turns up out of the blue! -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 17:32
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 13 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,882 |
Letter as response to LBC
Include copy of the relevant portions of your lease Ask them why they think their client has a case. Thank you, this all sounds good. It sounds to me like it was the Managing Agent who hired them. You need to nip this in the bud, otherwise more tickets will appear. Write to the Management Agent. I understand, although I would like you to confirm, that you have contracted with UK CPM Ltd to manage the car park. You need to be aware that your jurisdiction for authorisation of a parking scheme extends only to the communal areas of the car park, and that space X.X actually belongs to me. Therefore you have no authority to appoint a third party to offer parking on a space which I own, and already have permission to park. I hereby withdraw all implied access to you, your employees, agents, and subcontractors (including but not limited to UK CPM Ltd) to space X.X of the car park. Any incursion onto this land (including for the purposes of placing speculative invoices on any vehicle parked in this space) will be deemed as trespass and tortious interference, and I reserve the right to take action against you and/or your agent for damages in respect of such trespass. May I remind you that, under Laws of Agency, you are vicariously liable for the actions of your agent. We tried this with me sending a long detailed letter. Unfortunately the MA are useless, they have been through a merger and customer service was almost non-existent. When I followed up my correspondence they had no record of it but I will try again. I have asked for the threads to be merged. It looks to me as though you have never received a NtK. Contact SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gov.uk to see if they ever applied for RKs' details. It may be useful information if a NtK suddenly turns up out of the blue! I've asked my partner to check and you are right, there's apparently no NTK. It looks like they just assumed my partner was liable as they sent a letter of appeal. Is this a good thing? Lastly, in the LBC there's a thing about creating an account with Gladstone's to challenge the claim, I can't remember the exact wording as I don't have the letter with me now. Should info this? I am loathe to and feel that all communication should be in written correspondence Thanks |
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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 17:47
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
If there is no NTK then that is another defence point in that there can be no keeper liability, only the driver can be liable.
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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 18:02
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
Lastly, in the LBC there's a thing about creating an account with Gladstone's to challenge the claim...... That's a new one on me. They normally refer to 'your account no xxxx' which has an outstanding sum!!! -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 18:07
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
They want you to create an account to use their online firms. Saves them paper
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