TFL PCN 46:Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) St Johns Wood Road, NW8 |
TFL PCN 46:Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) St Johns Wood Road, NW8 |
Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 09:25
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 5 Apr 2016 Member No.: 83,472 |
Hello
I woulp appreciate a quick look. I stopped in a white box on a red route without thinking twice. It was no more than a minute. I had taken a wrong turning and needed a second for my GPS to reset the route. PCN scans and photos here: https://imgur.com/a/71pBwcA Google streetview here (The bay in question is the one closest to "Dora House", which is visible in the default positioning): https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5296963,-...3312!8i6656 Many thanks This post has been edited by hotgrips: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 09:47 |
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Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 09:25
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Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 09:57
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Bay signs are usually facing oncoming traffic like the one opposite - both bays say no stopping except for buses.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5295834,-...3312!8i6656 you can ask for a DVD with video This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 09:59 |
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Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 12:08
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,860 Joined: 12 May 2012 Member No.: 54,871 |
As per Stamfordman, ask for a copy of the CCTV footage, if it shows a stop of less than 1 minute, then a de minimis defence may be the way to go, but would undoubtedly be at Adjudication with the full £130 Penalty at stake. If you ask for the evidence, the penalty will be held at £65 until you have had a chance to view it.
The signs should face oncoming traffic, but again, this would end up at Adjudication - some Adjudicators will go by the letter of the Law, which says that Red Route signs should face oncoming traffic, while others are content with "substantial compliance" i.e that the sign is present. Another £65 gamble at 50/50 odds. |
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Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 12:22
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 5 Apr 2016 Member No.: 83,472 |
Thank you both
On page 2 it says "you can view the CCTV footage at the Transport for London office.... The viewing by you ... can take place between the hours of 9.00 and 17.00" Does that rule out the possibility of obtaining the footage as a DVD or by other remote means? |
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Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 13:29
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Thank you both On page 2 it says "you can view the CCTV footage at the Transport for London office.... The viewing by you ... can take place between the hours of 9.00 and 17.00" Does that rule out the possibility of obtaining the footage as a DVD or by other remote means? No, as has been said above, if you call up TFL and ask for the video they will send you a DVD in the post. I would add that the sign for the bay does not appear to be facing traffic, which is helpful. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 17:38
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,860 Joined: 12 May 2012 Member No.: 54,871 |
Thank you both On page 2 it says "you can view the CCTV footage at the Transport for London office.... The viewing by you ... can take place between the hours of 9.00 and 17.00" Does that rule out the possibility of obtaining the footage as a DVD or by other remote means? No, as has been said above, if you call up TFL and ask for the video they will send you a DVD in the post. I would add that the sign for the bay does not appear to be facing traffic, which is helpful. If the PCN/NtO still says £10 to have the DVD sent to you, ignore it - it's free. If you wish to, you can make an appointment to see the footage at TfLs Office - it's in Southwark. Currently, TfL do not have the technology for online viewing. This post has been edited by DastardlyDick: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 17:39 |
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Fri, 24 May 2019 - 08:15
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 5 Apr 2016 Member No.: 83,472 |
Here is the footage. I was in the box for 50 seconds
https://youtu.be/E0g1db8e47s This post has been edited by hotgrips: Fri, 24 May 2019 - 08:16 |
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Fri, 24 May 2019 - 08:22
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Well it's ridiculous to enforce a PCN for stopping briefly in a marked bay but we are where we are with TFL.
I think I'd push this to adjudication not least because the presence of a car in the bay gives one the idea it's OK to stop in the bay. The issue is you were fiddling with your GPS though. But you didn't park and leave the bike. This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 24 May 2019 - 08:34 |
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Fri, 24 May 2019 - 12:20
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I still can't make out the sign in the video, maybe it's facing the wrong way, or gone missing. Would be worthwhile to go back and check.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 24 May 2019 - 16:21
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 757 Joined: 16 Jun 2010 From: sw11 Member No.: 38,303 |
It is ridiculous. Where's the evidence in that video that the signage was even present? The rider pulled over to make an adjustment to his vehicle in order continue his journey safely, not stopping.
-------------------- PePiPoo will likely close in October due to issues beyond the control of any contributor to this forum.
You are encouraged to seek advice at https://www.ftla.uk/speeding-and-other-criminal-offences/ where the vast majority of the experts here have moved over to already. |
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Fri, 24 May 2019 - 16:37
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,860 Joined: 12 May 2012 Member No.: 54,871 |
The rider pulled over to make an adjustment to his vehicle in order continue his journey safely, not stopping. Since when is fiddling with a satnav "making an adjustment to his vehicle" etc? IMO the OP can either:- (a) go with a de minimis defence as he was only stopped for 50 seconds. (b) appeal on the ground of defective signage. © pay up. |
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Fri, 24 May 2019 - 18:49
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 5 Apr 2016 Member No.: 83,472 |
Since when is fiddling with a satnav "making an adjustment to his vehicle" etc? IMO the OP can either:- (a) go with a de minimis defence as he was only stopped for 50 seconds. (b) appeal on the ground of defective signage. © pay up. I'm quite ignorant of how this all works. Can one appeal citing both (a) and (b) or is one restricted to a single argument? This post has been edited by hotgrips: Fri, 24 May 2019 - 18:50 |
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Fri, 24 May 2019 - 19:43
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
You can make as many arguments as you like.
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Sat, 25 May 2019 - 08:44
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 5 Apr 2016 Member No.: 83,472 |
I'm about to make a representation.
Would incorrect signage come under "there has been a procedural impropriety...."? Also, I assume photographic evidence would be required that the signage is incorrect? |
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Sat, 25 May 2019 - 16:15
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Would incorrect signage come under "there has been a procedural impropriety...."? No, it would be that the alleged contravention did not occur. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 25 May 2019 - 17:30
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 5 Apr 2016 Member No.: 83,472 |
I just noticed another detail.
In the google streetview archive from Nov 2016, the sign was correctly positioned In the latest streetview image, as we have seen, it is improperly positioned. Though the latest streetview is from Nov 2018. Does that in any way strengthen the argument? This post has been edited by hotgrips: Sat, 25 May 2019 - 17:37 |
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Sat, 25 May 2019 - 19:12
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Not really, we need to know what the sign looks like now rather than six months ago.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 26 May 2019 - 16:07
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 5 Apr 2016 Member No.: 83,472 |
Visited the location today.
Gallery here: https://imgur.com/a/BpFwLcJ Went overkill with the number of photos just in case. |
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Sun, 26 May 2019 - 16:13
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I think if you'd stopped for as long as necessary to see the sign and then driven off, you'd have a complete defence. However you were stationary for a long time, and made no obvious attempt to locate the signage. At the same time the bay markings were white rather than red, so you had no obvious indication that you were on a red route.
You can clearly make the argument that if the signs had been facing traffic, as they should, the contravention would not have been committed, but it's not a guaranteed victory by any stretch of the imagination. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 26 May 2019 - 16:41
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Write a draft challenge and post here.
What I find odd is that in your pics there are two vehicles parked on the box yet they are not buses, which the sign says are the only ones allowed there at any time. |
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