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Newham, Parking Contravention Code 30, Zone PN, Parking ticket received, is it valid?
zcacogp
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 16:03
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Hi,

I received a parking ticket 5 days ago in Newham in London. I displayed a visitors permit in the car which I thought was valid for 6 hours and parked in an area with signage which I now guess means I should only have stayed for 20 minutes. I was there for about an hour and a half. Relevant pictures are as follows;

Front of visitors permit (redacted)




Rear of visitors permit



Front of ticket (redacted)



Rear of ticket



Sign



My question is whether this ticket is valid or whether I have any chance of overturning it. The reason I parked where I did was because I believed that the permit was valid for 6 hours as it says on the front of it and I thought the '20 minutes' on the sign referred to parking without a permit (i.e. offering 20 minutes for free to load or unload). On re-examining the ticket I can see it says 'Up to 6 hours', hence my undoing. A VERY helpful local chap spoke to me when I returned to the car (I think he's seen a lot of people caught out by this over the years) and said that I could get the ticket overturned and explained how and why. I didn't entirely follow his explanation but I believe it was to do with the fact that the CPZ name (i.e. 'PN' in this case) isn't correctly signed when you enter the CPZ - there are meant to be signed on both sides of the road but apparently there aren't. However I've looked at the Newham CPZ map and I'm not entirely sure which CPZ I was in. The map is here:

https://mapping.newham.gov.uk/LocalView/Sites/CPZ/

I was parked here:

https://goo.gl/maps/KYFkXotK3zv

Looking at the Newham CPZ map it looks like I was in the 'Plaistow North' CPZ, which corresponds with the CPZ name being 'PN', but according to their website 'Plaistow North' looks like this:



... and I don't think I was parked anywhere within this.

In short, is there scope for challenging this ticket or should I make the most of the 14-days reduced fee of £40 and pay up quick?

All help welcomed, thanks.


EDITED TO ADD: A hunt on pepipoo throws up this topic, where someone else was caught in a very similar situation in the same borough (Newham). However it doesn't have a conclusion.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...;p=1277340&

Thanks again for any help.

This post has been edited by zcacogp: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 16:06
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post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 16:03
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cp8759
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 18:47
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Upload a higher resolution version of the back of the PCN. However at first glance the sign is clear and it appears you misunderstood it.


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stamfordman
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 20:23
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See also this thread- same sign , same confusion.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=124776

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 20:23
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zcacogp
post Sun, 16 Dec 2018 - 13:34
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CP8759 and Stamfordman,

Thanks for your replies. It looks like I am not the only one who has fallen foul of that sign. Speaking to the people whom I was visiting they know of a few people who have been caught as well. However if it's a legitimate sign and I have simply misunderstood it then the failing is mine.

CP8759, here are the higher-res images of the front and back of the ticket. I'll put links for them in as well should they not show up in enough detail on this thread.



Link: https://mega.nz/#!hUJ2WYbK!KIKeZL1A...g1TlMOcPfD3pmTA



Link: https://mega.nz/#!NdZAGCzA!IhpnOFl3...15DM36RKlwLM_TA

Thanks again for your help. If it is simply a matter of an error on my behalf then I'll pay within the 14 day reduced-price period.
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Neil B
post Sun, 16 Dec 2018 - 15:19
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As in the other thread, it's worth challenging because, while the meaning of the sign is clear,
the wording of the relevant Traffic Order may say something different.

They've got the wording right for extensions East and West to the zone but I haven't found anything
relevant for Park Rd yet.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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zcacogp
post Sun, 16 Dec 2018 - 15:38
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Neil,

Thanks. Do I need to dig out the relevant Traffic Order and compare the two or do I just challenge it? If the latter then what basis do I challenge it on: do I say "I believe that the sign contravenes the relevant Traffic Order", or something else?

(And here I'm going to betray myself as a complete numpty but what is a 'Traffic Order'? Presumably the underlying rules that allow them to put up signs like this. Where would I find a copy of it?)


Thanks very much for your help.
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Neil B
post Sun, 16 Dec 2018 - 15:44
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I'm thinking on how to phrase it.

Orders should be freely available; sometimes library or they might e-mail you the relevant one.
Ask via main switchboard.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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zcacogp
post Sun, 16 Dec 2018 - 15:48
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If I was to call the main switchboard then what do I ask for? The Traffic Order for the PN Controlled Parking Zone? Or is it the Traffic Order for all Parking Zones?

As and when I get hold of it then will it be comprehensible for a layperson or should I be seeking professional advice? Or could I post it on here?

(I don't think I've ever seen a Traffic Order and so am unsure whether it will be easy to understand or whether it will be beyond me!)
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Neil B
post Sun, 16 Dec 2018 - 17:29
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The Order governing parking places on Park Rd, particularly that outside number -whatever it is.

And yes, if you get it, post it here as you'll potentially help others as well.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 16 Dec 2018 - 17:34
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What's the date of service. And how do you know?


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cp8759
post Sun, 16 Dec 2018 - 21:34
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PASTMYBEST I think in the new higher-res copy of the PCN the date of service is readable.

zcacogp, have a read of this: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&...t&p=1429835

It's a good argument to add to your representations because, if nothing else, Newham are likely to fail to consider it properly.


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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 16 Dec 2018 - 22:23
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 16 Dec 2018 - 21:34) *
PASTMYBEST I think in the new higher-res copy of the PCN the date of service is readable.

zcacogp, have a read of this: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&...t&p=1429835

It's a good argument to add to your representations because, if nothing else, Newham are likely to fail to consider it properly.


I was looking at the enhanced copy, and date of service can be diserned by us and probably by the OP but what if there was no date of contravention. its not that clear. And you should not have to enhance the PCn in order to glean information that is required by statute


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zcacogp
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 16:07
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Update: I've called Newham to ask for a copy of the Traffic Order. I eventually managed to speak to someone on the main switchboard, who admitted that he had no idea what I was talking about when I asked for a copy of the 'Traffic Order governing parking in Park Road, E15'. He told me that it was a Data Protection matter and offered to put me through to the Data Protection team. He then told me that it would be dealt with by Highways, but Highways won't speak to anyone nor do they send out documents, and he then said that he would pass my details on to the Parking Design Team who would be able to help. He took my eMail address and told me to expect an eMail.

Am I right in thinking that a Traffic Order is a publicly available department which they should make available for people to see if they wish? If they can't (or won't) allow me to see a copy then does this make their parking permissions and permits system invalid?

PastMyBest, I see what you mean about the date of service running into the pre-printed ticket header but it's readable if you look closely. Nice idea though, thanks.

CP8759, thanks for the link. I presume that the point I should consider is the use by Newham of a non-free fax number which causes an artificial increase in the cost of the fine. I'll wait for an answer from Newham with a copy of the Traffic Order and compose an objection to the ticket, and use this point as well.

I note also that there is (or was) a well-known error on the reverse side of Newham parking tickets. I have read the standard text on the reverse of mine and can't see any complete clangers there, but don't really know what I am looking for. Is it now correct?

Thanks again for your help.

This post has been edited by zcacogp: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 16:08
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Neil B
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 16:23
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Re the Order.

The Councillor with Transport portfolio is currently unavailable.
If local, identify and contact your local Councillor and ask them to get it for you.

By coincidence, it's a a Councillor for Plaistow North that's covering transport matters.

Zulfiqar Ali

https://mgov.newham.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=1952


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zcacogp
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 16:48
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Neil,

Thanks again for your digging on this one.

I'm not local. Should I eMail Mr Ali and ask for a copy of the Traffic Order? (Putting it another way, is there any reason why I shouldn't eMail him and ask for a copy of the order?)
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cp8759
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 17:11
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By law the TRO is a publicly available document, but only if you actually go to the council offices and ask for see it (which isn't an option if you're not local). Can't see any downside in contacting Mr Ali, though he may not respond if you don't live in his ward.

FOI requests should not generally be used for TROs as they take far too long, but in this case I would send off a FOI request anyway because even if all else fails, they can't ignore a FOI request and if nothing you're almost certain to get it within the 20 working day time limit. Just ask for the Traffic Management Order governing parking in Park Road, E15.


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Neil B
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 18:13
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 17:11) *
By law the TRO is a publicly available document, but only if you actually go to the council offices and ask for see it (which isn't an option if you're not local). Can't see any downside in contacting Mr Ali, though he may not respond if you don't live in his ward.

FOI requests should not generally be used for TROs as they take far too long, but in this case I would send off a FOI request anyway because even if all else fails, they can't ignore a FOI request and if nothing you're almost certain to get it within the 20 working day time limit. Just ask for the Traffic Management Order governing parking in Park Road, E15.

+1 but in parallel; ask Mr Ali for it directly as well.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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zcacogp
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 08:15
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FoI Access Request sent and also an eMail to Mr Ali. I notice that I have yet to hear back from the council themselves.

If I was to go to Newham and ask to see the Traffic Order then what would I do? Go to the front desk of their council offices and simply ask nicely? And if they look at me in a very bemused way and tell me that they can't help me then what happens next?

I notice that I am also a week into the 2-week discount period so think I will write to them to challenge the ticket along the lines of "This offence didn't happen". Clearly it will be rejected but it will buy more time. Is this a bad idea?

Thanks again fro your help.
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cp8759
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 10:43
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QUOTE (zcacogp @ Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 08:15) *
If I was to go to Newham and ask to see the Traffic Order then what would I do? Go to the front desk of their council offices and simply ask nicely? And if they look at me in a very bemused way and tell me that they can't help me then what happens next?

Then the council would be in breach of regulation 7(3) of, and schedule 2 to, The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, see http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/24...gulation/7/made and http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/schedule/2/made

If you were to go down this route, you might want to consider a covert go-pro camera to record the encounter. If you were to make a firm but polite request to view the documents under the regulations, and even after speaking to a manager they were to repeatedly and flatly refuse, that may amount to a ground of appeal in its own right (If a breach of LATOR 18 is a ground of appeal, I don't see why breaching LATOR 7 wouldn't be).


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Neil B
post Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 11:36
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zcacogp

Quick question.
Have you tried to view the Council evidence pics for this online, via the 'pay PCN' portal ?

If not, I suggest you do so and report back what happens.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 11:37


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