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Logician
Posted on: Yesterday, 22:03


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I think if challenged, the prosecution will be able to show that a NIP was produced and included in a bag of mail that was collected by Royal Mail. There is then a rebuttable presumption that it was delivered two business days later. Rebutting successfully is difficult, evidence of previous postal issues is helpful of course. If you were driving you might be better advised to do the customary deal, whereby the s.172 charge is dropped if you plead guilty to the speeding. Although the speeding is not on the court papers it may be possible to resurrect the charge since it was there at the SJP stage.

As there is no evidence as to who was driving your car, since you have not told them, there can be no conviction for the speeding unless you plead guilty. Get to court early and ask one of the ushers (people scurrying about with clipboards and possibly gowns getting things organised) to point out to you the prosecutor who will be dealing with traffic matters. Say to him/her that you will plead guilty to the speeding if they will drop the s.172. We have never heard of prosecutors refusing to do this, they prefer to get a conviction for the underlying offence, and regard the two offences as effectively alternative offences. If you do not manage to speak to the prosecutor beforehand, you should still be able to do the deal in the courtroom. It is very difficult to do this in advance of the court hearing as you would have trouble speaking to the right person.
If you had received the NIP you could have nominated yourself as the driver and would then have received the offer of a fixed penalty. The normal sentencing for speeding in court would be rather more severe than this, so you would have been disadvantaged. Therefore you should point this out to the court and request to be sentenced at the fixed penalty level, which is a guideline for magistrates' courts in these circumstances. The actual wording of the guideline is:

Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1426783 · Replies: 7 · Views: 127

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 23:45


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Like any office processing any work, it depends on the workload and staff availability, there is no set time and it is very early days, try to chill a little!
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1426560 · Replies: 30 · Views: 1,127

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 19:15


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If a fixed penalty notice is not paid, it can be registered at court plus a 50% uplift and collected by the court.
That is what seems to have happened to your friend, a £50 fixed penalty has not been paid, the police have not forgotten about it, and have registered it with the court, so is now £75 and the court will now collect it. Yes, he does have to pay it, or one of the unpleasant things listed in the letter will occur. It is too late now to do anything other than pay it.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1426449 · Replies: 7 · Views: 409

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 11:55


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There is a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival, in that having just bought the car you were obviously not the registered keeper at that time, so the first NIP would have gone to the previous owner. As advised above get the reply off ASAP and cross your fingers, failing a course, you should get a fixed penalty.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1426305 · Replies: 7 · Views: 368

Logician
Posted on: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 16:22


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QUOTE (Appleofmyeye @ Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 12:11) *
Yes- we are a limited company


In that case you need to be aware of two things:

1. If the driver is not named, the company will be fined but no one will get points.

2. The defence that the company did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was, is not available unless the company can show that no record was kept of persons who drove the vehicle and the failure to keep a record was reasonable..

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1425826 · Replies: 7 · Views: 698

Logician
Posted on: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 00:02


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Yes, the signs were pretty bad when the GSV van went past in 2010 LINK just one click back and they both disappear. But there are streetlights and it is too late to do anything now anyway, except point this out to the council.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1425627 · Replies: 9 · Views: 683

Logician
Posted on: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 23:47


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The fundamental question is whether or not you were exceeding the speed limit, not your exact speed. If you accept you were over the limit, it does not matter what your speed was, as long as it was below 65mph you will still get a fixed penalty of £100 + 3 points.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1425625 · Replies: 2 · Views: 300

Logician
Posted on: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 11:27


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QUOTE (RocketRonnieRadox @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 12:12) *
Thanks all. Does being a hot spot qualify the location for more signs and hence be some for of mitigation ? The sings are clear in one direction but not the other.


Not a chance. Approaching that stretch of road you either come off the by-pass which is clearly signed, from the West which is clearly signed, or from the East, where you are already in a 30 mph zone and there is no indication the limit has changed so it continues at 30 mph. The limit has not recently changed from 40mph, it has been 30mph for at least 8 years, so your friend must have been mistakenly thinking it was a 40 limit when it was not. I suggest he pleads guilty when he gets to court, does not attempt to offer mitigation because there is none, and apologises for wasting everyone's time.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1425342 · Replies: 11 · Views: 658

Logician
Posted on: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 10:32


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Will this offence take him to 12 or more points? I am wondering why he was not offered a fixed penalty.

Do you mean Haslingden Western Bypass? I am struggling to see any sign that Grane Road between those two points was ever a 40mph limit. It was certainly a 30mph limit in September 2015 which is the first time Jubilee Road was signed as 20mph, the other s of those signs show Grane road as a 30mph limit. LINK

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1425319 · Replies: 11 · Views: 658

Logician
Posted on: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 08:45


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QUOTE (Wheels @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:38) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 06:00) *
I think you’ll struggle to get an appeal heard on the first case, I can’t see you have any good reason for not appealing in time. You need to be much better prepared for the second case, you need to be sure if it’s non receipt of the reply or that they found it unsatisfactory for some other reason. Can you ask the nominated driver if they received anything at all, better still if they will agree to be a witness to the fact that they were indeed driving and thus your daughter had nothing to gain by not replying.
I think he would for both cases? The delay in replying is discussing it with my daughter, when she's in the correct frame of mind to discuss it, her fear of appearing in court and having a melt down in front of others and now realising that that is a better option than losing her licence. I wanted to appeal immediately, but on advice of a friend that points for failing to provide details is not so frowned upon for insurance purposes than speeding or red light and it wouldn't affect her as badly for renewal, she thought she'd just take it, it has been a long road working with her to see that she shouldn't take a guilty when she's innocent because it will come back and bite you later, which it is doing now.


I am afraid that the advice you received from a friend is entirely wrong, insurance companies do not like failing to provide convictions at all, they wonder what was so bad about a person's driving that they preferred to accept 6 points rather than admit to being the driver. Speeding on the other hand is something that many drivers have had points for, and those who haven't will probably get them sooner or later.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424795 · Replies: 41 · Views: 2,152

Logician
Posted on: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 22:49


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QUOTE
And I definitely recall it was amber and not red when I went past the barrier


It may have been amber when you went past but red by the time the back of your car went past.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424753 · Replies: 11 · Views: 1,114

Logician
Posted on: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 22:38


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1. No
2. Your son has no defence based on the NIP and is frankly unlikely to have another, so best for you and he to return the paperwork quickly because he is just within the scope of a speed awareness course, provided he has not done one for an offence within the previous 3 years.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424748 · Replies: 3 · Views: 372

Logician
Posted on: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 22:32


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A common mistake, most only discover it when they receive a court notification. Hopefully you will be in time to put it right.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424746 · Replies: 3 · Views: 416

Logician
Posted on: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 22:30


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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 09:20) *
Wouldnt the TT99 code show up on the licence checker? I presume that would show for a number of years? (Ive not seen this myself, I'm just still confused by the points and ban and trying to work it out. Would be good if OP can confirm some details!)


Quite right, it stays for 4 years, the mystery deepens.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424744 · Replies: 24 · Views: 1,202

Logician
Posted on: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 01:47


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The police would be able to prove that they posted the identity request, and it is assumed to be delivered two business days later, unless it can be proved that it was not. Proving a negative is of course very difficult, and this is the situation for all drivers. Evidence of previous problems with post may help, if there is any. If your daughter cannot manage her affairs, and has a history of shoving unopened mail in drawers, then it may lessen the value of her evidence that she did not receive the letter. I fear that if you push too hard on her condition and her melt downs, you are rather raising the issue of whether she should actually be driving at all.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424401 · Replies: 41 · Views: 2,152

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 23:37


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QUOTE (Rambo1701 @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 22:33) *
If all I am getting is 3 points and £100 is fine, I just thought because it was 91 in a 70 that puts me in the Band B which is a weeks wage and 4-6 points, did not realise the harsher penalties/fines were only applicable for court.


The sentencing guidelines for offences dealt with in court were revised in April 2017, and it was so badly announced and reported that confusion like yours is widespread. Fixed penalties are normally offered up to 50 mph in a 30 limit (55 in some areas) and up to 25 mph over the limit for limits of 40 to 70 mph.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424393 · Replies: 6 · Views: 317

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 20:37


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QUOTE
Can I request the device calibration certificate?


You can request what you like, but it is some sort of urban myth that such a certificate may help you, even if it is out of date it does not override the statutory assumption that the device is accurate. After many years on this forum I have never come across a case where a calibration certificate was of any use at all, so my advice is to forget about that and just accept the fixed penalty.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424358 · Replies: 6 · Views: 317

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 16:40


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Is your small distribution company run as a limited company or by you as a sole trader or partnership?
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424261 · Replies: 7 · Views: 698

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 11:16


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If you take a course you may have to notify your insurers if the policy states that, most do not but Admiral group companies do.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424168 · Replies: 14 · Views: 396

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 11:12


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QUOTE (gas man @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 12:05) *
Excellent the rookie Whats the cost


Depends on the provider, you will have to look that up yourself.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424166 · Replies: 12 · Views: 368

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 11:11


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QUOTE (666 @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 06:59) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 00:05) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 17:34) *
QUOTE (Irksome @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 14:54) *
No, they wouldn't ride like a complete tool ... having taken several 'ridesafe' courses (1 on 1 or 2 on 1 courses with a Police motorcyclist on the road), one is encouraged to 'make progress' and where sensible that may include exceeding the posted limit (Having a fully liveried motorcycle up your chuff as you pass 90 encouraging you to go a little faster is an odd experience!)
Pretty poor training by them then, since no exemption applies.
Arguably the vehicle is being used for a police purpose in training the rider?
But that exeption does not apply to the trainee ....


The exception applies to the vehicle, not the driver.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424165 · Replies: 40 · Views: 2,771

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 23:05


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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 17:34) *
QUOTE (Irksome @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 14:54) *
No, they wouldn't ride like a complete tool ... having taken several 'ridesafe' courses (1 on 1 or 2 on 1 courses with a Police motorcyclist on the road), one is encouraged to 'make progress' and where sensible that may include exceeding the posted limit (Having a fully liveried motorcycle up your chuff as you pass 90 encouraging you to go a little faster is an odd experience!)
Pretty poor training by them then, since no exemption applies.


Arguably the vehicle is being used for a police purpose in training the rider?

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424050 · Replies: 40 · Views: 2,771

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 22:56


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QUOTE (Eric68 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 18:12) *
My speed was 60. The table says upto 56. Then the far right hand says 66 and above but all other cases. I’m over the 56 but under the 66. I hope that makes sense. You’re right there is so much to read.


It is not very clear and you have to read it bearing in mind the statement above, that the various sanctions come in at the speeds indicated. So on the 40 limit line, a fixed penalty comes in at 46 when a course is not appropriate, a course may be given up to 53, and it goes to court at 66. Your speed was 60, so you are above the level for a course but below the level for court, so it is a fixed penalty offer for you.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424048 · Replies: 30 · Views: 1,127

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 22:38


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QUOTE (Vitss @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 20:43) *
No Jlc,where can that documentation find it please


Jlc was asking what you had seen that gave you the impression there had to be a 6 month gap. To be clear, there is no requirement for a 6 month gap.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424045 · Replies: 10 · Views: 328

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 22:34


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QUOTE (TonyS @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 19:24) *
QUOTE (chocolate7 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 17:26) *
... As I understood from them, there was a court hearing and I was apparently given 6 points and was disqualified from driving form October last year till April this year.
Points and a ban for the same offence? Unless you already had 6 points prior to this, have you checked exactly what offence(s) was charged?


A six month totting disqualification seems to fit, the offence itself would not attract a disqualification of that length. So probably it was 6 points for s.172 on top of presumably another 6 points, perhaps from another s.172. A totting disqualification would wipe the points off the licence, and the OP says that none are now showing It cannot have been a new driver revocation, as no new licence would have been issued without a test.

I think the OP needs to ask the DVLA for the history of his licence, not just the current position, as he may need to make two stat decs if he got previous points he was unaware of.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424044 · Replies: 24 · Views: 1,202

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