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Police powers to detain
Petraki
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 13:43
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Am I right in saying the police don't actually have any powers to detain anyone unless they are arresting them, apart from in a few special instances?

1. You are subject to a stop and search.
2. You are about to or have committed a breach of the peace.
3. A search of your premises is being carried out and you have to be detained to not interfere with the police in carrying out their duty. (This is not clear cut by any means)

Is this correct? If not, could someone point me to the relevant legislation please?

This post has been edited by Petraki: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 13:57
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post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 13:43
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cp8759
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 10:02
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QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 15:49) *
If the offence is indictable and they necessity reasons are under PACE are met then the PCSO can use reasonable force under Section 3 Criminal Law Act 1967 to arrest the wrongdoer so that they can retain them until a PC arrives.

If the offence is indictable and the necessity reasons under PACE are met then every Tom Dick and Harry can effect an arrest under section 24A.


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Charlie1010
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 13:18
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Good.
Well done.
Detain can be different to arrest.
Thanks.
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southpaw82
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 14:39
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QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 15:49) *
This power to detain is without force and a PCSO can not put hands on to prevent the wrongdoer from leaving until constable arrives.

That’s not what the Police Reform Act 2002, Schedule 5, Part 1, para 4 says - entitled “power to use reasonable force to detain person”. It’s why BTP (at least) issue their CSOs with handcuffs.


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Charlie1010
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 14:43
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Thank you for the clarification.
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baggins1234
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 15:28
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 12:14) *
Is it just me or do discussion on rights when dealing with the police conjure up visions of people talking themselves into trouble?


Not visions alas....

Reality unfortunately.

Amusing though... mostly.

Last weeks offering was a male who had been detained for a step and search.

I arrived once that was all done and dusted so I wasn’t “present” so I’m not involved.

He demanded my details (despite being able to read them ion my tac vest)

I declined.

“My dad is a barrister, I know my rights, you must tell me who you are”.

My reply “my dad helped build Concorde but I don’t know it’s take off weight”

He then said it was on Facebook so it must be true....

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southpaw82
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 15:40
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QUOTE (baggins1234 @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 16:28) *
Not visions alas....

Reality unfortunately.

Conversation outside a nightclub many years ago:

Numpty 1 to Numpty 2: “the cops have to give you a warning before they can arrest you for public order”

N2: “issit?”

N1: “yeah watch” - approaches yours truly - “ay, f**k off pig!”

Me: “you’re under arrest for being drunk and disorderly”

N1: “you can’t do that!”

Ratcheting of cuffs...

Section 5 of the POA isn’t the only tool in the armoury and a little knowledge is a dangerous thing... rolleyes.gif


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DancingDad
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 16:24
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 16:40) *
QUOTE (baggins1234 @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 16:28) *
Not visions alas....

Reality unfortunately.

Conversation outside a nightclub many years ago:...………..


Many of the fly on the wall TV cop shows amply illustrate that similar still happens.


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Fredd
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 17:16
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 17:24) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 16:40) *
QUOTE (baggins1234 @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 16:28) *
Not visions alas....

Reality unfortunately.

Conversation outside a nightclub many years ago:...………..


Many of the fly on the wall TV cop shows amply illustrate that similar still happens.

It's probably because they reckon that police (and other government employees for that matter) are about the only group they can subject to that kind of abuse nowadays without risking a large bill for restorative dental work. Back in the '70s when I were a lad, however, I don't think they'd have been so keen to chance it.


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The Rookie
post Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 03:18
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 15:40) *
a little knowledge is a dangerous thing... rolleyes.gif

Invariably it seems more so than no knowledge at all......


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Petraki
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 07:01
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QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 15:49) *
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...-officer-powers

It does.

Power to detain: A PCSO has the Power to detain a person whom a PCSO has reason to believe has committed a relevant offence and who fails to comply with a requirement to give name and address or who gives an answer which the PCSO reasonably suspects to be false or inaccurate for up to 30 minutes or until the arrival of a police officer (or to accompany that person to a police station if he or she elects to do so on request). Paragraph 2 of Schedule 4 to the Police Reform Act 2002.
This power to detain is without force and a PCSO can not put hands on to prevent the wrongdoer from leaving until constable arrives. Refusing to give details after committing a relevant offence is an offence in itself and is summary only (fine). If the offence is indictable and they necessity reasons are under PACE are met then the PCSO can use reasonable force under Section 3 Criminal Law Act 1967 to arrest the wrongdoer so that they can retain them until a PC arrives.


I stand corrected. Does that mean PCSO's actually have more powers than police in some instances or have I understood it wrong?
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southpaw82
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 09:06
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QUOTE (Petraki @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 08:01) *
QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 15:49) *
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...-officer-powers

It does.

Power to detain: A PCSO has the Power to detain a person whom a PCSO has reason to believe has committed a relevant offence and who fails to comply with a requirement to give name and address or who gives an answer which the PCSO reasonably suspects to be false or inaccurate for up to 30 minutes or until the arrival of a police officer (or to accompany that person to a police station if he or she elects to do so on request). Paragraph 2 of Schedule 4 to the Police Reform Act 2002.
This power to detain is without force and a PCSO can not put hands on to prevent the wrongdoer from leaving until constable arrives. Refusing to give details after committing a relevant offence is an offence in itself and is summary only (fine). If the offence is indictable and they necessity reasons are under PACE are met then the PCSO can use reasonable force under Section 3 Criminal Law Act 1967 to arrest the wrongdoer so that they can retain them until a PC arrives.


I stand corrected. Does that mean PCSO's actually have more powers than police in some instances or have I understood it wrong?

Very wrong. The guidance is also flawed.


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Charlie1010
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 10:13
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Care to enlighten us master?
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southpaw82
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 10:27
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Charlie1010
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 10:58
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Thanks. I thought you had more to add.
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Petraki
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 11:20
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 10:06) *
Very wrong. The guidance is also flawed.


Well that's not confusing!
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southpaw82
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 11:52
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QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 11:58) *
Thanks. I thought you had more to add.

It was the one that stood out to me. CSOs’ powers can be found in the Police Reform Act 2002.


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Petraki
post Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 13:15
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 12:52) *
QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 11:58) *
Thanks. I thought you had more to add.

It was the one that stood out to me. CSOs’ powers can be found in the Police Reform Act 2002.


It seems they can only detain you, or use 'reasonable force' to detain you if they've been granted such powers by the relevant local authority, which will be shown on their designation card.
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southpaw82
post Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 15:23
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QUOTE (Petraki @ Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 14:15) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 12:52) *
QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 11:58) *
Thanks. I thought you had more to add.

It was the one that stood out to me. CSOs’ powers can be found in the Police Reform Act 2002.


It seems they can only detain you, or use 'reasonable force' to detain you if they've been granted such powers by the relevant local authority, which will be shown on their designation card.

CSOs don’t work for a local authority (other than being employed by a police authority). Are you not looking at accredited persons?


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