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Can`t ascertain who was driving at the time
sgl
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 19:49
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Hi guys. it`s been quite a few years since I was on here and I hope your all well. Licence clean for about 8 years!
In a nutshell I was informed this morning of an NIP with the mini I drive for work. date of incident 25/6/18, the car is on permanent hire so the NIP went to the RK 1st and then to the company I work for on the 24th of the 7th (Date on the NIP sent to the company). There are around 8 of us which use this vehicle but mostly myself and going back that far we have no idea who was driving at the time and you can`t make out who it was at all from the photo`s, it`s just a blur.
It`s now 27 days since they received the notice but I was only informed today. What do I/we do? (do they still send a reminder out?)

Cheers
Steve

This post has been edited by sgl: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 19:52


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post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 19:49
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peterguk
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 19:53
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Is there not a log for the vehicle?

Reminders are not an obligation, but why would your company need one?

This post has been edited by peterguk: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 19:58


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StuartBu
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 19:59
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QUOTE (sgl @ Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 20:49) *
Hi guys. it`s been quite a few years since I was on here and I hope your all well. Licence clean for about 8 years!
In a nutshell I was informed this morning of an NIP with the mini I drive for work. date of incident 25/6/18, the car is on permanent hire so the NIP went to the RK 1st and then to the company I work for on the 24th of the 7th (Date on the NIP sent to the company). There are around 8 of us which use this vehicle but mostly myself and going back that far we have no idea who was driving at the time and you can`t make out who it was at all from the photo`s, it`s just a blur.
It`s now 27 days since they received the notice but I was only informed today. What do I/we do? (do they still send a reminder out?)

Cheers
Steve

Bit late now but a log of users of the car would have avoided this situation so maybe an idea for going forward. So have the company returned the NIP nominating you and if so have you received your own?
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notmeatloaf
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 20:00
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If no-one is sure what was driving but you drive the most then the most sensible nominatio would be unequivocally to name you. There is no need to name the certain driver, only the most likely without further qualification.

If your company does not name any driver they will receive a larger fine but obviously no points.

FWIW companies are supposed to keep sufficient records to identify drivers and, as someone who uses pool cars, I would advise you to push for it. Next time it might be a much more serious offence and you don't want the buck to stop with you because "seems most likely". People do some bloody stupid things in pool cars.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 20:01
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andy_foster
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 20:35
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I'm not entirely sure how being named unequivocally would be particularly helpful to the OP (or what a nominatio, sensible or otherwise, is).

There is no general requirement for a company to keep records, but if it does not (and the failure to keep a record is not reasonable) it cannot rely on the reasonable diligence defence.

If the company has not named the driver, and the time to do so expired today, being given extra time would generally be beneficial.

@OP - Strictly speaking, you currently have no obligations under s. 172 - the addressee (your employer) does. Their exact obligation depends on whether or not they are the 'person keeping the vehicle', as would the obligations of anyone subsequently nominated. We could waste our time trying to guess the relevant details, or you could give us the full story.


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sgl
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 21:24
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 21:35) *
I'm not entirely sure how being named unequivocally would be particularly helpful to the OP (or what a nominatio, sensible or otherwise, is).

There is no general requirement for a company to keep records, but if it does not (and the failure to keep a record is not reasonable) it cannot rely on the reasonable diligence defence.

If the company has not named the driver, and the time to do so expired today, being given extra time would generally be beneficial.

@OP - Strictly speaking, you currently have no obligations under s. 172 - the addressee (your employer) does. Their exact obligation depends on whether or not they are the 'person keeping the vehicle', as would the obligations of anyone subsequently nominated. We could waste our time trying to guess the relevant details, or you could give us the full story.

Thanks Andy.
The 1st time I came on here for help I ended up staying a while and learning/helping out but that was some time ago. At the time I never received the original notice and after the 28 days I was sent a letter asking why I hadn`t responded so I told them this was the 1st I knew about it having not had the NIP and could they send me a copy which I would gladly fill in and return. They then sent me a 2nd notice which was then served out of time and although they took it all the way to crown court it was thrown out by the judge.
What i`m asking is, seeing as it`s past the 28 days will they send a similar correspondence or should we just fill it in with my details and send it back tomorrow?
No idea why it`s taken so long to actually let me know all this so not much time to do any digging as to who`s to blame. The firm will pay the fine but i`ll get the points, which I don`t mind but i`ve been long out of the loop so in today's world I know very little and although it`s down to the company, they are very good friends as well.

This post has been edited by sgl: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 07:43


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Logician
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 21:32
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QUOTE (sgl @ Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 22:24) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 21:35) *
I'm not entirely sure how being named unequivocally would be particularly helpful to the OP (or what a nominatio, sensible or otherwise, is). There is no general requirement for a company to keep records, but if it does not (and the failure to keep a record is not reasonable) it cannot rely on the reasonable diligence defence. If the company has not named the driver, and the time to do so expired today, being given extra time would generally be beneficial. @OP - Strictly speaking, you currently have no obligations under s. 172 - the addressee (your employer) does. Their exact obligation depends on whether or not they are the 'person keeping the vehicle', as would the obligations of anyone subsequently nominated. We could waste our time trying to guess the relevant details, or you could give us the full story.
Thanks Ian. The 1st time I came on here for help I ended up staying a while and learning/helping out but that was some time ago. At the time I never received the original notice and after the 28 days I was sent a letter asking why I hadn`t responded so I told them this was the 1st I knew about it having not had the NIP and could they send me a copy which I would gladly fill in and return. They then sent me a 2nd notice which was then served out of time and although they took it all the way to crown court it was thrown out by the judge. What i`m asking is, seeing as it`s past the 28 days will they send a similar correspondence or should we just fill it in with my details and send it back tomorrow? No idea why it`s taken so long to actually let me know all this so not much time to do any digging as to who`s to blame. The firm will pay the fine but i`ll get the points, which I don`t mind but i`ve been long out of the loop so in today's world I know very little and although it`s down to the company, they are very good friends as well.


The current situation is that it is almost unknown for NIPs to be sent out late, without a good reason, so do not pin any hopes on that. If the company fails to reply, it will receive a fine (unless it mounts a successful defence) and no one will receive any points.



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Dwaynedouglas
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 06:33
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I'm confused. (Not difficult).

Do you have a NIP in your own name?

I can't make out whether the company has a NIP for the car and has informed you (at which point the onus would be on the business to complete their NIP, naming you), or this has happened, and there is a NIP in your own name.

Also what's the alleged speed / limit?


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sgl
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 07:50
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QUOTE (Dwaynedouglas @ Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 07:33) *
I'm confused. (Not difficult).

Do you have a NIP in your own name?

I can't make out whether the company has a NIP for the car and has informed you (at which point the onus would be on the business to complete their NIP, naming you), or this has happened, and there is a NIP in your own name.

Also what's the alleged speed / limit?

It`s at the stage where the lease company have sent back the original notice and now the company I work for have the NIP in their name but now, after 28 days they decide to inform me. Is there any point in getting them to fill it in at this stage now it`s late? I think perhaps 2 of those weeks they were on holiday but still had time to let me know or fill it in themselves.
39 in a 30.

And My apologies andy_foster for calling you Ian! rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by sgl: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 14:42


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Slapdash
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 07:59
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Op,

You state the firm will pay your fine. It really shouldn't do this.

If they do they should:-

Ensure it is not claimed as an expense on the CT calculation.
Wnsure it is appripriately recorded as a payment to you on your P11.

Obviouslyit is not covered by any dispensation the co has.
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TheDisapprovingB...
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 13:14
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QUOTE (sgl @ Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 08:50) *
It`s at the stage where the lease company have sent back the original notice and now the company I work for have the NIP in their name but now, after 28 days they decide to inform me. Is there any point in getting them to fill it in at this stage now it`s late? I think perhaps 2 of those weeks they were on holiday but still had time to let me know or fill it in themselves.
39 in a 30.


At this stage, your company can do whatever they want - it's their s.172 to complete, and not your problem. You do nothing unless and until you receive your own s.172 in your name.

If that happens, you need to establish whether or not you were driving. See if your phone has any kind of location tracking feature (most Android phones record your location and can be checked at https://www.google.co.uk/maps/timeline, not sure about iPhones) that can tell you where you were at the time. Check bank statements etc for any purchases on that day, work rota etc. If you're happy that you were driving, return the form naming yourself. Do that sharpish to maximise the chance of a course being on the table. If you're not happy that you were the driver, return the form with a note saying that you weren't the driver at the time and have no other information as to the identity of the driver, and naming your employer as the keeper.

The fact that your company is willing to pay the fine seems dodgy - if they knew it was you driving they'd have no reason to do that, so it sounds like they're trying to get somebody to take the hit. As a company, they can still be prosecuted for failing to furnish details of the driver, but they can't be given points. Don't take the points unless you're happy that it was you behind the wheel.

This post has been edited by TheDisapprovingBrit: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 13:17
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Churchmouse
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 16:20
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QUOTE (sgl @ Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 07:50) *
QUOTE (Dwaynedouglas @ Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 07:33) *
I'm confused. (Not difficult).

Do you have a NIP in your own name?

I can't make out whether the company has a NIP for the car and has informed you (at which point the onus would be on the business to complete their NIP, naming you), or this has happened, and there is a NIP in your own name.

Also what's the alleged speed / limit?

It`s at the stage where the lease company have sent back the original notice and now the company I work for have the NIP in their name but now, after 28 days they decide to inform me. Is there any point in getting them to fill it in at this stage now it`s late? I think perhaps 2 of those weeks they were on holiday but still had time to let me know or fill it in themselves.
39 in a 30.

Up to you, but if they do nothing, they may be convicted of failing to furnish, but you'll be off the hook!

--Churchmouse
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sgl
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 17:08
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 17:20) *
QUOTE (sgl @ Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 07:50) *
QUOTE (Dwaynedouglas @ Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 07:33) *
I'm confused. (Not difficult).

Do you have a NIP in your own name?

I can't make out whether the company has a NIP for the car and has informed you (at which point the onus would be on the business to complete their NIP, naming you), or this has happened, and there is a NIP in your own name.

Also what's the alleged speed / limit?

It`s at the stage where the lease company have sent back the original notice and now the company I work for have the NIP in their name but now, after 28 days they decide to inform me. Is there any point in getting them to fill it in at this stage now it`s late? I think perhaps 2 of those weeks they were on holiday but still had time to let me know or fill it in themselves.
39 in a 30.

Up to you, but if they do nothing, they may be convicted of failing to furnish, but you'll be off the hook!

--Churchmouse

I`ve told him to get it filled in ASAP naming myself, let`s see what happens....i`ll post back here!
wink.gif


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sgl
post Thu, 6 Dec 2018 - 17:13
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Just got my own NIP from this "Offence" Date 24/6/18. does the 6 month time limit to lay court papers start from the issue of this NIP or is it from the date of the offence?
Cheers.


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BaggieBoy
post Thu, 6 Dec 2018 - 17:17
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Date of the offence.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 6 Dec 2018 - 17:39
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Yep, get the reply to them on the 27th and your in the clear.


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Redivi
post Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 11:46
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This needs a bit of planning to make sure it arrives on the 27th and not the 24th when the police could in theory start the prosecution

What about sending it on the 24th by Special Delivery ?

What's the date of your S172 request ?
(It's not a NIP. That's is an entirely different document that's only sent to the registered keeper)
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The Rookie
post Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 12:23
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If it arrives on the 24th, the chances they commence proceedings that day would be pretty small.

If the request arrived on the 6th, the reply must be there on the 2nd Jan, so timing isn't that critical, better still if it was dated the 5th as then delivery (service) was presumed on the 7th and the reply required by the 3rd.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 12:32


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

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Redivi
post Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 13:31
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Yes

Pretty small but still possible

As long as the request is dated Weds 28th November or later, it's easy to time out without the risk of the reply arriving on the 24th
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cp8759
post Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 16:03
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 12:23) *
If it arrives on the 24th, the chances they commence proceedings that day would be pretty small.

I would not chance it though, if someone opens the letter on the 24th they might make a point of printing off the paperwork before heading home.

If you send it 1st class on 24th with free proof of postage from a post office, it's deemed served on 28 December, so you should include a happy new year card.


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