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PCN for parking in suspended bay, Signage not visible, house number not visible
bakingtree
post Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 18:17
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I received a PCN for parking in a one-day suspended bay, at 08:32 – two minutes after the suspension started. I parked at around 23:00 the night before, when no signage was visible on either side of the road. I found a PCN on my car the next day (11 March), and looked at the pictures online. They show a yellow notice right next to the car I parked behind the night before. I am very vigilant to check signage when I see it, and would have seen this signage had it been visible at the time I parked.

Further down the street, there was another suspended bay, dated 20 March, the sign for which was at pavement level. It would have been invisible to any road user paking their car, and I believe that the same happened to the sign that was near my car. On 11 March, when I found the PCN, the signage was nowhere to be seen, so I cannot verify that the cable ties holding it were loose or not, but it seems likely.

On finding the PCN, and reviewing the images, I can see that even if the signage had been visible, it would have been impossible to verify the location of the bay that was suspended. The bay is a road-long residents' bay, and the house - in front of which the bay was suspended – has no number on its door whatsoever.

Any help or suggestions about how I can represent myself and avoid paying this unreasonable fine would be most appreciated.
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post Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 18:17
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 18:21
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Your right nothing is visible. Post te PCN and the council photos so we can make a judgement and advise on challenge points


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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 18:26
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Hopefully not bleedin' Camden again!

Mick
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bakingtree
post Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 18:46
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I'm afraid it is indeed Camden council! Many thanks for the replies – here are the images.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/9533/QgOkfC.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/4903/Qo5nPp.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/607/kyJBme.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/6488/njFwvx.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3963/ZRXPum.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6692/4z4nzI.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/3423/giAgPL.jpg
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 19:22
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https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.546032,-0...6384!8i8192

The sign is on a lamppost situated outside a building where you can make out te number 15A. The sign says 15 inclusive, what does that mean if you look to the spot you parked then it would appear to be beyond the boundary of this property, so how could you possibly be expected to understand that 15 is triple fronted or even if it is

See this adjudication that makes a finding on this point and IMO is worth referencing

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.546032,-0...6384!8i8192

2200100232


Mr. xxxxx participated in this hearing by telephone but, in the event, I did not need to hear his evidence or submissions because it was quite clear, based on the EA’s own evidence, that either the vehicle was parked in a bay that was not suspended or the signage was ambiguous, as Mr. xxxx had argued.
I had regard to the EA’s evidence based principally on the entries made by the civil enforcement officer (CEO) and the CEO’s photographs. The position is that Mr. xxxx vehicle was parked at the end of a set of 4 parking bays. As one looks at the bays from the carriageway, Mr. xxxx vehicle was on the far left, in the first bay, going from left to right. It appears to be parked adjacent to a door marked with ‘60A’.
The sign containing the information about the suspension was on the footway towards the right of the sets of bays, outside a door marked ‘58’. The sign is, approximately, between the third and fourth bay, going from left to right. To the immediate left of the sign is an unmarked door on what appears to be residential premises (which might be number 60) and, to the left of that building, adjacent to the rear of Mr. Islam’s car, is a retail business which also appears to be unmarked with a house number. That, too, could be number 60. To the right of the sign is another unmarked door, which may be number 56.
The sign states that the suspension affects ‘outside 58-60, 2 spaces’. That is not a very helpful piece of information in respect of a set of 4 spaces which appears to span from 56 to 60A. The most logical interpretation of the sign in the context of the place in which it is sited is that the affected spaces are the second and third spaces, i.e. those outside 58 and the residential building that might be number 60. It is not obvious at all that the sign refers to the space at the other end of the set of bays from the place that the sign is located, outside a building marked as 60A. It is in that location that Mr. Islam’s vehicle was parked.
I conclude that, either, the space in which Mr. Islam’s vehicle was parked was not affected by the suspension or, alternatively, that the signage was so ambiguous as to be inadequate. In either circumstance the contravention is not proved


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hcandersen
post Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 20:58
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I parked at around 23:00 the night before, when no signage was visible on either side of the road. I found a PCN on my car the next day (11 March), and looked at the pictures online. They show a yellow notice right next to the car I parked behind the night before. I am very vigilant to check signage when I see it, and would have seen this signage had it been visible at the time I parked.


So you're saying that you checked for the restriction - not on 'either side of the road', but just yours (the other side of the road is like the other side of the moon) when you parked and did not see the sign which by extension means it was not there. Yes? Or did you not even go towards it?

Anyway, can we have some facts pl.

Are you local and do you know the area?
You are parked outside a house with a green door but no obvious number.
What and where is the number of this property and can it be seen from the road?
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bakingtree
post Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 22:00
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So you're saying that you checked for the restriction - not on 'either side of the road', but just yours (the other side of the road is like the other side of the moon) when you parked and did not see the sign which by extension means it was not there. Yes? Or did you not even go towards it?

I am saying that, as a matter of course, I check every yellow sign for parking restrictions when I see one where I park – on either side of the road (i.e. I will check the sign even if it is on the other side). I did not see the sign pictured, and do not believe it to have been there when I parked the night before. I walked past the black car in front, so would have walked past the sign.

Are you local and do you know the area?
You are parked outside a house with a green door but no obvious number.
What and where is the number of this property and can it be seen from the road?


I am local and park on this road every time I use my car. There is no number on the green door. I went to look myself when the PCN was issued, and there is just a piece of paper with something illegible written on it. It is in no way clear what the house number is, even when standing right outside the front door.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 07:40
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and do not believe it to have been there when I parked the night before. I walked past the black car in front, so would have walked past the sign.

The authority will have evidence on this point. If they do and it states that the sign was erected prior to you parking then the adjudicator would accept this as proof, that's just the way it works.

I am local and park on this road every time I use my car. There is no number on the green door. I went to look myself when the PCN was issued, and there is just a piece of paper with something illegible written on it. It is in no way clear what the house number is, even when standing right outside the front door.


Can we just take this apart. Did you go to the front door, if so, when? This is not an objective fact, but it's important.
Their photos show that your car is fully within the frontage of the house with the green door.
The sign states 'permit holders only; outside 15 inclusive'. It does not otherwise indicate the extent of the suspension e.g. X car spaces etc. Therefore if, and it's a big if, the adjudicator accepted that the sign was clear then it was clear only to the extent of the location given i.e. 'outside 15 inclusive'.
The door has no number. So even anticipating the most picky of adjudicators' responses, what are the numbers of the properties immediately to the left and right?

Focus on what the sign states and the objective reality of what is shown in the photos or could be obtained by you and forget about the sign not being there. IMO, this will save time.
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 08:08
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OP ---I mentioned Camden because we have had several run ins on the 10 minute grace period. These cases should demonstrate the current position:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1551384

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1507255

Ergo, Camden will reject any informal challenge on the 10 minute rule (which IMO is very winnable) so you will have to risk the full penalty at the NTO stage where we can write you an appeal.

Of course, in the meantime, you might persuade the Council that you were parked outwith the prescribed area.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 08:09
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hcandersen
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 08:46
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The 10-minute grace period relates to procedure and only applies if the car is in contravention then while it is grounds for reps I prefer to start with the contravention itself.

Therefore as regards any rejection by Camden, this could not be on the basis of the 10-minite argument alone because it's neither your only grounds nor the first of them, IMO.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 09:25
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 09:46) *
The 10-minute grace period relates to procedure and only applies if the car is in contravention then while it is grounds for reps I prefer to start with the contravention itself.

Therefore as regards any rejection by Camden, this could not be on the basis of the 10-minite argument alone because it's neither your only grounds nor the first of them, IMO.


Agreed re starting with the contravention and I do not think it is sustainable because of the signage. The OP may very well have missed it or indeed it may not have been there when they parked. That is a question to put to the council in a challenge. The next question is. Is the car within the confines of the restricted area. For myself looking at streetview I think not. The car as HCA says is parked fully within the frontage of the house with a green door. Next to that is a property and there can be seen a number15A. The gardens of these two properties are separated by a rendered brick way. I certainly would think even if I had stared at the sign that I had parked outside the restricted area. If That is not the case does the sign then properly identify the restricted area " outside 15 inclusive " Inclusive of what, the rest of the bay 2, 3,4 parking spots who is to know.

I do not see where the GP might come into it, the OP has redacted times on the PCN but photos show 10.08 and the restriction started at 08.30


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bakingtree
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 10:50
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Many thanks for your all your replies and help so far. I'll try to answer the questions raised as best I can below:

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 08:40) *
Can we just take this apart. Did you go to the front door, if so, when? This is not an objective fact, but it's important.
Their photos show that your car is fully within the frontage of the house with the green door.
The sign states 'permit holders only; outside 15 inclusive'. It does not otherwise indicate the extent of the suspension e.g. X car spaces etc. Therefore if, and it's a big if, the adjudicator accepted that the sign was clear then it was clear only to the extent of the location given i.e. 'outside 15 inclusive'.
The door has no number. So even anticipating the most picky of adjudicators' responses, what are the numbers of the properties immediately to the left and right?


The PCN was issued on 10 March at 08:32. I found the PCN on 11 March, when I next use the car. At this point, I walked the road in both directions looking for the signage, which had gone. At this point, I found other signage for a suspension on 20 March that was a street level, having slipped down the post. I then went to look at the green front door, finding no number on the door, or the door next to it (presumably 17). Two doors down, there is a sign clearly displaying 19, however there is a gate between 17 and 15 that looks like another front door if you are no looking carefully (or at 22:40, when I parked the night before). The door to the other side of the green door displays 15A.

You can see the above here via Streeview: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.546032,-0...6384!8i8192

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 10:25) *
Agreed re starting with the contravention and I do not think it is sustainable because of the signage. The OP may very well have missed it or indeed it may not have been there when they parked. That is a question to put to the council in a challenge. The next question is. Is the car within the confines of the restricted area. For myself looking at streetview I think not. The car as HCA says is parked fully within the frontage of the house with a green door. Next to that is a property and there can be seen a number15A. The gardens of these two properties are separated by a rendered brick way. I certainly would think even if I had stared at the sign that I had parked outside the restricted area. If That is not the case does the sign then properly identify the restricted area " outside 15 inclusive " Inclusive of what, the rest of the bay 2, 3,4 parking spots who is to know.


Could I just clarify on the above, are you stating that my car is outside the suspended/restricted area in your reading of the sign? You later say that if you had looked at the sign, you would think that you had parked outside the restricted/suspended area.

Thanks again for your help. Suggestions on next steps very welcome!
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 12:19
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My error the GP would apply I was reading part of the date as the time wub.gif

Having said that there is a photo

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/607/kyJBme.jpg

This shows the PCN on the car at 08.33 on the 10th. You assertion that you parked on the 10th at 11.00pm would be thrown out by an adjudicator. So in honesty I would forget all about the sign was not there and concentrate on what area it governs and if it then communicates what that area is to the required standard.

Then you come to the GP The regulations require that when parked in a designated parking place as you were when a restriction comes into force and you fall into contravention then a period of 10 minutes must be allowed obviously for a restriction starting at 08.30 a PCN at 08,32 does not allow this.

The council will argue tat once the restriction comes into effect the bay is no longer a designated bay. I can think of one adjudicator that accepted that argument though the general feeling amongst adjudicators and those here is that at the time you parked the bay was designated and that is the test so the GP must apply

You make an informal challenge include all three points, This will be rejected You then wait for the next document a NTO you then make formal representations to the council same points but argued more robustly and any points that may arise from the response to challenge. This will be considered by someone higher up the food chain. If this is rejected then you may appeal to an adjudicator, this is the time for legalizing the arguments to make it as strong as possible.

I would start with not in restricted area explain why, then sign does not describe the restricted area properly given the geography of the area then That the CEO was proscribed from issuing a PCN until the expiry of 10 minute after the start of the contravention so the PCN is invalid


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hcandersen
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 15:36
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+1, but explain in simple terms and don't wander off into immaterial issues.

What counts:
The sign; the description; how a motorist is supposed to convert this into an area on the ground.

Pl stop referring to no.15 as if it exists, as far as I can see it doesn't.

House with unnumbered green door:
*to the left of which is a house which bears the number?
*to the right of which is a property bearing the number ?

Is what I want, and only what I want!
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bakingtree
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 17:22
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 16:36) *
Pl stop referring to no.15 as if it exists, as far as I can see it doesn't.

House with unnumbered green door:
*to the left of which is a house which bears the number?
*to the right of which is a property bearing the number ?

Is what I want, and only what I want!


I tried to covered this in my reply above – I apologise if that wasn't clear.

To the left of the un-numbered green door is an un-numbered black door. It is unclear if this leads to another property, or is a door to alleyway between the houses. The steps leading up to it look identical to the steps leading up to the front doors on the street, so its function is unclear.

To the right is a white door with a paper sign reading 15A.

Hope that makes sense now.
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cp8759
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 20:58
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FYI: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5460259,-...6384!8i8192

bakingtree, do you think you might have actually parked on the 9th and not gone back to the car till the 11th? I can ask for the suspension log but if we can't get the timeframe right there's no much point.


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hcandersen
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 21:46
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Just to clarify:
The black door to which you refer is clearly not a door to a house, you can see the flank walls of the adjacent properties. It is an access to the rear.

The next house to the left is unnumbered.

So, reading from right to left: 15A, blank, blank, 19.

Bizarrely, my GSV now shows the green door with number 15 and suffixes B and C.

But it's not for us or you to dance on the head of a pin ver this: there is no door numbered 15, neither is there a 17.

By the way, take clear photos of the green door, the house door to the left and the one to the right.
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cp8759
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 22:24
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 22:46) *
Bizarrely, my GSV now shows the green door with number 15 and suffixes B and C.

That's because if you clicked my link above, you're looking at the GSV capture from February 2018 rather than the more recent one from April 2019. An adjudicator like Michael Burke might have the same idea.


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bakingtree
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 10:55
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 21:58) *
FYI: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5460259,-...6384!8i8192

bakingtree, do you think you might have actually parked on the 9th and not gone back to the car till the 11th? I can ask for the suspension log but if we can't get the timeframe right there's no much point.


Many thanks for the archive image – that's very interesting. I parked on the 9th at 22:40 and I returned to the car at 12:30 on the 11th. I had no need to use the car on the 10th, so only saw the PCN on the 11th, which is the point at which I also checked the doors on the street.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 22:46) *
But it's not for us or you to dance on the head of a pin ver this: there is no door numbered 15, neither is there a 17.

By the way, take clear photos of the green door, the house door to the left and the one to the right.


I am currently stuck outside London and my home due to Coronavirus restrictions, so unfortunately will not be able to capture images until these are lifted.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 11:44
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Dont miss the deadlines waiting for these photos. Post up your draft challenge before you send. Remember this needs only the facts as to when you parked that the sign is outside no 15 that it restricted outside 15 and you parked out with the property boundary of 15. Lastly that they were proscribed from issuing a PCN until the end of a ten minute period after the start of the restriction


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