Bus lane cctv ticket, Changing lane in a Bus Lane Options

[Madz87]

Hi there dear members im new to this forum and was directed here by a fbk group to get some advice on what to say in my formal appeal as my initial informal appeal was obviously rejected and i now stand to pay £130 if rejected again or if i dont appeal. Unfortunately for me the small useless patch of bus lane on whipps cross road a12/greenman side is in service 24/7 and i entered later in evening which makes zero difference. I have been working in leyton for the past year and have passed this lane near the end several times to change lane as i prefer to be in lane before the roundabout as there ia usually traffic waiting at the lights. Usually i would have just paid but clearly shown in their cctv footage i was changing lane as did the vehicle in front of me right near the end so max of 5 feet i believe. I will try to add some pictures shortly if the forum lets me. Many thanks in advance im running out of days as 28 days from 3 dec to appeal.

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[stamfordman]

Let's see the video - this is the key evidence. Plus the PCN.


Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

Put videos on Youtube, Vimeo or such like.

[Madz87]

https://ibb.co/5v2zYdT
https://ibb.co/D8hS5bL
https://ibb.co/0s5cyHw
https://ibb.co/MVQy42Z
Hi there thanks for your msg here is a few pics. How do i copy the video from waltham forest site? Or shall i just make a video on my phone while it plays on my tab?

This post has been edited by Madz87: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 - 18:16

[stamfordman]

here's video. We've seen a few of these at the end of this lane. It looks trivial to me. Post the PCN. just blank out name and address.



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 - 19:48

[Incandescent]

Not sure about the trivial aspect. The bus lane ends half-way along the bridge, and looks about 40 yards on from the bus stop markings shown on the video. Needless to say there is no End of Bus Lane sign, just about typical for London these days.

[cp8759]

There's a known will / may flaw in Waltham Forest bus lane PCNs, upload photos of all sides of all pages so we can check.

[Madz87]

Here are 4 sides of the enforcement notice:
https://ibb.co/8NZxKNx
https://ibb.co/PzVkKYf
https://ibb.co/8BM747z
https://ibb.co/SfGnF12
Yeah I'd rather not get in waltham forest and the way they enfore parking the crooks i had a car lifted for being on single yellow on top of the recovery fee they still said the pcn will stand and is separate but you can appeal it as normal although i did i still paid it grrr that was £350 i didn't have.
Regarding this lane in particular i believe the cam is placed conviniently near the end but just before the end so that even if you enter 2ft or 10 you will still be seen the same. As i suspect the car in front would have also got a pcn to his surprise...quick question my uncle reckons they indicated whereas i didn't is there such a rule or is it at the camera operators discretion?

[Madz87]

Its all coming back to me slowly as i put all the annoying facts before on a post when i first got this PCN...in their initial response they(WF) mentioned that causing an obstruction to a bus is an offence and a pcn will be issued but to answer that particular point there was no bus in sight at the time nor in front of me nor behind so technically I never caused an obstruction nor drove on the actual bus stop.

[Incandescent]

Its all coming back to me slowly as i put all the annoying facts before on a post when i first got this PCN...in their initial response they(WF) mentioned that causing an obstruction to a bus is an offence and a pcn will be issued but to answer that particular point there was no bus in sight at the time nor in front of me nor behind so technically I never caused an obstruction nor drove on the actual bus stop.

All irrelevant, I'm afraid. The law makes it an offence just to drive in a bus lane, so councils just install CCTV cameras and watch the money roll in. IMHO the offence should be "obstructing a bus in a bus lane", but there you are, the law is unlikely to be changed until MPs start getting whalloped a lot for driving in bus lanes.

[cp8759]

Here are 4 sides of the enforcement notice:

Show us the PCN.

[Madz87]

I seem to have misplaced the original ticket but its quite similar to the one i sent above and shows the same contravention. I may have their reply to my initial appeal in my email if that's helpful but i really need to get on and appeal by tomorrow latest i believe.

[cp8759]

Well the discount is gone so you might as well assume the PCN has the will may flaw we saw here http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=131271

As the discount is not in play, you might as well go for it.

Have a read of the cases linked in rows 105 to 116 here http://bit.ly/2AR0JNg to get your head round the issue.

[Madz87]

Happy new year to you and your families people have a good one. I take it there is some templates available i will have a look through and send it off today hopefully I'm not too late.

[PASTMYBEST]

Happy new year to you and your families people have a good one. I take it there is some templates available i will have a look through and send it off today hopefully I'm not too late.

We don't do templates, we sometimes write appeals, but you are a bit late for that. Whatever you send must be sent today.

You are claiming that any incursion was to trivial to be classed as a contravention and that the enforcement notice is flawed to the extent that it is invalid

[Madz87]

After some digging i found the PCN and the rejection letter.
https://ibb.co/3p3S123
https://ibb.co/b2VR3J7
https://ibb.co/FhNm0Bh
https://ibb.co/GVWWB7K
https://ibb.co/9pWG6NT

[cp8759]

Send this, keep all italics and bold italics formatting exactly as I've used it below:

Dear London Borough of Waltham Forest,

I challenge liability for the penalty for three reasons.

Firstly, the penalty can properly be regarded as de-minimis, I draw your attention to Ashfaq Ahmad Chaudhry v London Borough of Merton (2130253836, 11 July 2013) where the tribunal ruled as follows:

"I would estimate that the vehicle only entered the bus lane no more than 8-10 metres of the remaining stretch of that bus lane.
Moreover, not only had the bus which was in the bus lane nearly completely pulled out of the bus lane when the appellant
entered it, but at that point in time the bus had come to a complete halt in the main carriageway, and the appellant simply
pulled into the bus lane in order to turn left at the junction ahead which was only 8-10 metres in front of his vehicle. The
appellant did not undertake any vehicles in so doing and gained no advantage over any other motorists.

For completeness I should add that there is a 20 metre rule that should normally be observed before any PCN should be
issued and in this case the vehicle clearly was not driven in the bus lane for this distance. In this case the appellant simply
made a permitted left turn across a bus lane for no more than 10 metres before turning left.

I accordingly allow the appeal."

Secondly, even if the council does not accept that the contravention did not occur because of the de-minimis rule, the council is nonetheless invited to exercise discretion to cancel the penalty.

Thirdly, section 4(3)(e) of the London Local Authorities Act 1996 imposes a requirement that a PCN must state that:

"if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an enforcement
notice may be served by the council or, as the case may be, Transport for London on the
person appearing to them to be the owner of the vehicle;"

However the PCN asserts that if no payment or challenge is made, an Enforcement Notice will be sent. In David Greenberg v London Borough of Barnet (216022028A, 29 June 2016) the adjudicator held that:

I consider that there to be manifest distinction between 'may' and 'will' which is substantial as opposed to semantics.

While the grounds to challenge a PCN issued under the 1996 Act are very limited, the tribunal has been willing to allow appeals against bus lane PCNs on the basis of a collateral challenge, see for example Loveleen Bansi-Matharu v London Borough of Newham (2190456525, 25 November 2019). Therefore even if the council believes the contravention occurred and it is unwilling to exercise discretion to cancel, nonetheless due to the non-compliance of the PCN wording the penalty must be cancelled in any event.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 - 14:29

[Madz87]

Thanks for that cant seem to find an appeal section when i enter ticket number on their website am i too late or do i have to email or post my appeal 1st class tomorrow? This is a bit of a mystery as ive never run out of time b4. I did read somewhere if you appeal after 28 days it may not be accepted but that obviously means it may.

[Madz87]

Never mind that message its all done and sent off i got a bit worried as i thought i was late but it seems they have changed the layout of the web page by showing the pay option on the 1st page and having a selection of tabs along the top. Many thanks for your help and hope for the best will let you know the result within 14 days. Just one annoying private parking ticket left to sort may be of interest to you they are asking £15 for a special chance to go through an independent appeal never heard of that have you?

This post has been edited by Madz87: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 - 22:26

[stamfordman]

Just one annoying private parking ticket left to sort may be of interest to you they are asking £15 for a special chance to go through an independent appeal never heard of that have you?

There's a private parking section if you want help with that one.

[Madz87]

Hi there people. Just thought I'd share an update but its not really much to share as i think they may have forgotten about my ticket??? Its been over a month aince i sent my appeal off but haven't heard anything since i may be wrong but its not like councils to disappear in matters of pcns or reply to appeals. I also have done an appeal against a Redbridge pcn and thats been even longer. Lastly thanks stamfordman i will put the private ticket info in that section but for now some debt collection agency keeps sending reminders and its gone up to £160 apparently